Jump to content

Thai Clinch Fighting Vs Wrestling


Recommended Posts

Right now I have the opportunity to work clinch everyday albeit with somebody considerably bigger.  I have some experience doing standup grappling but always in the context of takedowns for submission grappling.  
 

Does anyone have any advice or insight regarding the difference in these two paradigms?  I want to improve my ability to clinch and strike while maintaining a safe and beautiful ruup 

  • Like 1
  • Gamma 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I didn’t communicate this properly.  I’m only doing 10 minutes of clinch and I’m totally exhausted.  I’m trying to use the principles I’ve seen in the library and on Sylvie’s clinch for beginners seminar on YouTube.  The guy I’m clinching with out weighs me by about 75-80 lbs, is it just that weight difference that’s causing such rapid fatigue?  I can successfully move him with the collar tie elbow jamming into his chest.  I do pretty good winning dominant clinches.  But my turns feel very strength based.  Same for my sweeps, they aren’t beautiful timing based sweeps, they’re pulling with muscle sweeps.  Is there a better way of going about this?  I’ve heard drilling clinch is pointless so we’re pretty much going full on and I feel like I am getting better at it but in a fight I know I couldn’t keep this up, I’d get wrecked.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

75-80lb!! That's an insane difference. It would be very difficult to overcome, even for experienced clinchers. Try to clinch with someone 80lb lighter than you, and you'll get the idea. Being totally exhausted is normal.

Also, who says drilling clinch is pointless? That makes no sense. For reference, see how the Thais drill clinch in the library. See also how Judokas train foot sweeps, such as Deashi-harai.

If you can't find someone your size, you can still think of flow-based (instead of strength-based) drills to do together: "swimming," unbalancing, sweeps from 50/50, etc. You don't have to go full force all the time: you are learning to recognize certain common positions, their counters, counters to the counters, and smooth transitions between these.

The mismatch lb situation is common in BJJ training too. Ask your partner to go technical and not to rely on strength so much in your sessions.

Edited by trailrun
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/10/2022 at 4:16 PM, Nightshade said:

I’m only doing 10 minutes of clinch and I’m totally exhausted.

One of the more difficult things to learn in Thai clinch is relaxation. Getting to leverage positions and controlling those positions with selective tension. It just comes with time. Just as when a surfer new to the board will be tense all over when up on a wave, and an experienced surfer only tense in very particular areas. But clinching someone that much larger to start out with is going to intensify any tension, and exhaust you. Maybe just note how much you are holding your breath, and the areas of your body you are tensing in.

Also, maybe best is not to concentrate on throws or trips, just because these require greater feeling and already a firm knowledge of anchor positions, and trying to trip much larger opponents is advanced and can lead to frustration. Instead think about controlling positions from the inside, and breaking posture a bit, and scoring with knees repeatedly, turning your opponent, etc. Once you are able to control posture, breathe, and manipulate their position more, trips will become more accessible to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for responding Kevin and trailrun!
 

I was kinda thinking incorporating more knees would be a really good idea to really make it a Muay Thai clinch situation.  I actually do pretty good giving up weight in BJJ, and it’s pretty much the same idea that Kevin talked about relaxation and selective tension.  It’s the only way you can preserve enough energy to do what you gotta do.  I’m definitely going to take the advice and go easy on the sweeps.  It’s not worth the energy right now.  Turns, knees and proper inside positioning.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am 230lbs and 6'4" and I've been ragdolled by thais who where at most 165 and like 5'9". And I would always be the first to be tired. 

If you get exhausted it's because you're not relaxing enough and you're not framing enough. When you frame, meaning, you use your bones instead of your muscle to control the space between you and your partner, you should be able to relax. 

Now, throws and sweep will be very hard against someone with that type of size on you. Thais are never able to sweep or throw me in clinch, which is frustrating to them because Thais LOVE to sweep falangs. But they can crank my neck, bring me to the floor and ragdoll me accross the ring enough to make me cry. 

I guess you're partner is taller than you, if that's the case. Work on getting very close to him, getting to neck and cranking the shit out of it. Remember to hold the head high, not the neck, basically where the jewish yamulka is. And work on locking this position and the kind of triangle lock that Sylvie shows in some clips, this is hell for a tall guy. 

Now, if your parnet is a short, stocky, hyper muscular guy, I don't really have any advice. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
On 4/27/2022 at 7:34 AM, Joseph Arthur De Gonzo said:

I guess you're partner is taller than you, if that's the case. Work on getting very close to him, getting to neck and cranking the shit out of it. Remember to hold the head high, not the neck, basically where the jewish yamulka is. And work on locking this position and the kind of triangle lock that Sylvie shows in some clips, this is hell for a tall guy. 

I'm 5' tall - in my experience, if I'm clinching with someone much taller, say 5'9"ish, reaching for the head is impossible.  I just don't have leverage once my hand is on the head.  My arm is too extended.  I usually have to go to body or neck lock.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
9 hours ago, timmothysmith01 said:

Thai Clinch fighting is the part of stand-up fighting in which the opponents are grappling in a clinch, generally, the usage of clinch holds. Clinching the opponent can be used to take away the opponent's effective usage of some kicks, punches, and melee guns. The clinch can also be used as a medium to exchange from stand-up fighting to the floor fighting through the use of takedowns, throws, or sweeps. Whereas Wrestling is a frequently floor-based grappling kind of martial artwork wherein the primary aim is to pin your opponent, after taking him/her down.

Thanks for reading my post…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • Just very briefly I want to take up one of the most interesting aspects of the fighting art of Thailand's traditional Muay Thai, an aspect that really cues for me how I watch fights and weigh the skills of fighters. Managing distance. Many people watch "strikes" and look for "points", but there is an under-fabric to strikes, a kind of landscape of them, no less than how a topography will influence how a battle is fought between armies. Even the most practiced strikes rise and fall to opportunity, and in Muay Thai a significant determination of opportunity is distance. Above is a quick edit of Sylvie's last fight up in Buriram, bringing out all the significant moments of engagement, telling the story in about a minute. (The full fight should be up in a few weeks with Sylvie's commentary, as usual.) I'm going to start with Entertainment Muay Thai as presenting an negative can often be the best way to bring out a positive. Entertainment Muay Thai (and there are many versions of it, so we have to be very broad here), is largely principled by eliminating the importance of distance. What is sought, again being very broad, is a more or less continuous trading in the pocket. The quest is for an easy to follow, by the casual eye, "action". Everything is about the distance of the pocket. Setting up outside of the pocket can be regarded as anti-action (so, if you do, you should regularly charge into the pocket...and trade). And fighting through the pocket, to clinch range, is also devalued by very quick clinch breaks, scoring biases (changing traditional aesthetics). Clinch, which historically is featured in some of the most technical fighting of the sport, in Entertainment Muay Thai is more and more understood as a stall of the main goal. Pocket trading. Much of the art of Muay Thai is actually organized around all those distances that border "the pocket", controlling distance through length, or through grappling. In this fight Sylvie is giving up between 8-10 kgs (perhaps more than 20% of her body weight). Now, imagine it being fought under Entertainment aesthetics. What would it be if she just stood in the pocket, bit down, and just traded over and over with Phetnamwan? Would there be any point of such a fight? Yet, as the Golden Age legend Hippy Singmanee once said when criticizing hyper-aggressive, pocket-trading Entertainment Muay Thai, "Muay Thai is the art where small can beat big." Hippy was one of the most renown undersized fighters of the Golden Era. He knows of what he speaks. This fight, in the broad brush, illustrates some of that. More and more we've come to realize that as traditional Muay Thai evaporates slowly from the urban stadia, the only traditional Muay Thai still being regularly fought is in the provinces of the country. It is there that fights are scored in keeping with the art, and fighters retain the all around, multi-distance skills that make that art happen. Clinch is allowed to unfold. Narrative fight arcs are told as principle to scoring. Ryan, a knowledgeable commenter on Twitter and a very good writer on the sport, right away noticed how the ref let clinch flow. You can see some of our discussion there. I recall a conversation I overheard when attending the funeral of the legend Namkabuan in Nongki. It was the passing of one of the greatest who ever fought. During the day-before cremation a casual conversation arose between other legends of the sport, and very experienced news reporters, people who had been a part of it for decades. One of them insisted, Muay Thai no longer existed in Thailand. Others knowingly nodded their heads. But a Muay Siam reporter objected. "No...it still lives in the provinces." And the others agreed. It still was there. We in the English speaking world tend to think the substance of something is what has been presented to us. The Muay Thai of Bangkok is the real Muay Thai of Thailand because that is what we see...and, historically, many decades ago, it did represent the highest skills of the country. But what largely remains unseen is that more and more of the sport is being designed for our eyes. It is less and less for Thais, and more and more for "us", so we can become quite disconnected from what is real and authentic in a cultural, and even efficacy sense. There rhythms and values of provincial Muay Thai, as it is fought, coached and reffed, are part of the rich authenticity of the sport which falls into the shadows when we just look at what is being shown to "us". This fight, how it is fought, shows "the art of where small can beat big", and it shows why. It's through the control of distance. If you are small you just cannot stand at range. You either have to explore the bubble outside of the pocket, too far, or at its edges, and fight your way in to score...or, you collapse the pocket, smother the strikes, and possess the skill to control a much larger bodied opponent. Clinch, historically, is kryptonite to the striker. Muay Maat vs Muay Khao battles are legendary in the sport.  Classic. Who is going to impose the distance which is best for them? It's a battle of distances. And, for this reason, Muay Maat fighters of the past were not experts in trading in the pocket. They were experts in managing clinch fighters, or even high level clinch fighters themselves...and they were experts at hunting down evasive femeu counterfighters as well. Muay Maat fighters were strong. They had to have so many tools in their tool box. In versions of the sport where both fighters are forced to "stand and bang" repeatedly, we have been taken quite far from the glories of Thailand's Muay Thai fighters, and that is because Muay Thai is an art of distance control. This goes to a deeper point about the sport. It isn't really a "sport" in the International, rationalist idea of a sport. Muay Thai is culture. It is Thai culture. Thousands and thousands of fights occur on temple grounds, far from Western eyes. It has grown up within the culture, but also expressive of that culture. And it is a culture unto itself. The more we try to extract from this rich fabric some kind of abstract "rule set" and "collection of techniques" that can be used in other cultures, expressing their values, favoring their fighters, the more we lose the complex art of what Muay Thai is...and in the bigger sense move away from the value it has to the entire world. It's value is that it has a very highly developed perspective on distance management and on aggression. It has lessons upon lessons to teach in techniques of control and fight winning, woven into the DNA of its traditional aesthetics. And these techniques embody the values of the culture. It's all of one cloth. Sylvie has chosen the path less traveled. She's fought like no other Westerner in history (a record 271 times as a pro), and she has devoted herself to the lessor style, the art of Muay Khao and clinch fighting. There are very, very few women, even Thai women, who have seriously developed this branch of the art in the way that she has. And she's done it as a 100 lb fighter, taking on great size disparities as she fights. Because Muay Thai is "the art where small can beat big" there is a long tradition of great, dominant fighters fighting top fighters well above their weight, and developing their in style the capacity to beat them. Fighting up is Muay Thai. Sylvie's entire quest has been to value what may not even be commercially valued at this time, the aspects of the art which point to its greater meaning & capacity. The narrative of scoring, the control of distance, the management of striking through clinch, in the heritage of what it has been. I'm not saying that this is the only way to fight, or that Entertainment Muay Thai has no value for the art and sport. It's not, and it does. But, we should also be mindful of the completeness and complexity of Muay Thai, and the ways that those qualities can be put at risk, as the desire to internationalize it and foreign values become more and more part of its purpose. If we love what we discover when we come to Thailand, we should fight to preserve and embrace the roots of Muay Thai, and the honored aspects of the culture/s which produced it. photos: Khaendong, Buriram, Thailand (temple grounds)    
    • Hi, this might be out of the normal topic, but I thought you all might be interested in a book-- Children of the Neon Bamboo-- that has a really cool Martial Arts instructor character who set up an early Muy Thai gym south of Miami in the 1980s. He's a really cool character who drives the plot, and there historically accurate allusions to 1980s martial arts culture. However, the main thrust is more about nostalgia and friendships.    Can we do links? Childrenoftheneonbamboo.com Children of the Neon Bamboo: B. Glynn Kimmey: 9798988054115: Amazon.com: Movies & TV      
    • I really appreciate your wave patterns analogy; it applies to a lot of interactions. 
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • Hi, this might be out of the normal topic, but I thought you all might be interested in a book-- Children of the Neon Bamboo-- that has a really cool Martial Arts instructor character who set up an early Muy Thai gym south of Miami in the 1980s. He's a really cool character who drives the plot, and there historically accurate allusions to 1980s martial arts culture. However, the main thrust is more about nostalgia and friendships.    Can we do links? Childrenoftheneonbamboo.com Children of the Neon Bamboo: B. Glynn Kimmey: 9798988054115: Amazon.com: Movies & TV      
    • Davince Resolve is a great place to start. 
    • I see that this thread is from three years ago, and I hope your journey with Muay Thai and mental health has evolved positively during this time. It's fascinating to revisit these discussions and reflect on how our understanding of such topics can grow. The connection between training and mental health is intricate, as you've pointed out. Finding the right balance between pushing yourself and self-care is a continuous learning process. If you've been exploring various avenues for managing mood-related issues over these years, you might want to revisit the topic of mental health resources. One such resource is The UK Medical Cannabis Card, which can provide insights into alternative treatments.
    • Phetjeeja fought Anissa Meksen for a ONE FC interim atomweight kickboxing title 12/22/2023. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu92S6-V5y0&ab_channel=ONEChampionship Fight starts at 45:08 Phetjeeja won on points. Not being able to clinch really handicapped her. I was afraid the ref was going to start deducting points for clinch fouls.   
    • Earlier this year I wrote a couple of sociology essays that dealt directly with Muay Thai, drawing on Sylvie's journalism and discussions on the podcast to do so. I thought I'd put them up here in case they were of any interest, rather than locking them away with the intention to perfectly rewrite them 'some day'. There's not really many novel insights of my own, rather it's more just pulling together existing literature with some of the von Duuglus-Ittu's work, which I think is criminally underutilised in academic discussions of MT. The first, 'Some meanings of muay' was written for an ideology/sosciology of knowledge paper, and is an overly long, somewhat grindy attempt to give a combined historical, institutional, and situated study of major cultural meanings of Muay Thai as a form of strength. The second paper, 'the fighter's heart' was written for a qualitative analysis course, and makes extensive use of interviews and podcast discussions to talk about some ways in which the gendered/sexed body is described/deployed within Muay Thai. There's plenty of issues with both, and they're not what I'd write today, and I'm learning to realise that's fine! some meanings of muay.docx The fighter's heart.docx
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.3k
    • Total Posts
      10.9k
×
×
  • Create New...