Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Recently there have been talks about how to deal with fighters "dancing" too much and not engaging in fights, resulting in both fighters being dismissed from the ring after 2 warnings by the referee. Usually this is in the 5th round, although the announcements havw differed between promoters about how they will enforce the rule. Channel 7, for example (Giatpetch) has said this will only apply to rounds 1-4. On 2 promotions so far, including Petchyindee, fighters were dismissed by the referee (1 warning, 2nd warning is a deduction of a point from each fighter, after that they're dismissed) in round 5 of the Main Event. In both cases so far the public consensus is that it was warranted. 

I'm not certain how this affects the fighters' pay. I read on one post that their purse is cut in half, but have not seen that written anywhere officially. 

In this announcement Sia Moo, the head of Omnoi, says for his stadium fighters will be warned as in the previous suggestions, but after 2 warnings they will not be thrown out of the ring. He says this will only lead to new forms of cheating. (I totally see this. If you have no way to win, this cancels all bets.) Instead, fighters' purses will be docked as a result of too much non-engagement. He doesn't say by how much.

Screenshot_20211209-132932_Facebook.thumb.jpg.77b6220dd7ad857fc5c19001b8dd5e49.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

(I totally see this. If you have no way to win, this cancels all bets.)

I'm not sure how those cheering on the "throw them out" rule don't see that the rule actually can create even LESS engagement. Maybe there is a missing piece of information, but if I'm a fighter going into the 5th round and down big in the odds, there is almost every incentive not to engage and purposively try to get the fight called off, especially if there is sizeable money bet on me. Everyone who bet on me, including my own gym, would keep their money. The losing fighter wins when a fight is called off.

This puts the fighter with a big lead in a very difficult position as well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to understand, by 

On 12/9/2021 at 1:39 AM, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Recently there have been talks about how to deal with fighters "dancing" too much and not engaging in fights, resulting in both fighters being dismissed from the ring after 2 warnings by the referee.

So, it was ruled a no contest? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/9/2021 at 3:18 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm not sure how those cheering on the "throw them out" rule don't see that the rule actually can create even LESS engagement. Maybe there is a missing piece of information, but if I'm a fighter going into the 5th round and down big in the odds, there is almost every incentive not to engage and purposively try to get the fight called off, especially if there is sizeable money bet on me. Everyone who bet on me, including my own gym, would keep their money. The losing fighter wins when a fight is called off.

This puts the fighter with a big lead in a very difficult position as well.

Well wouldn't the idea be that if you get thrown out you don't get your purse? Figure getting paid should be enough incentive, yeah? Or is not-losing worth more than their potential purse for losing? Maybe gamblers giving the fighter some of the money they bet on him for saving their bet?

 

Quote

I'm not certain how this affects the fighters' pay. I read on one post that their purse is cut in half, but have not seen that written anywhere officially.

I do see Sylvie mentioned it's not entirely known how it affects their pay... I just assume the reason most of these guys are fighting in the first place is because they're getting paid. If getting thrown out = less pay, that defeats the entire point of fighting. Is saving the gambler's money that important to the fighters (could be. genuine question, I don't know enough about the gambling)?

If they're still getting paid even after being thrown out, I believe that would be the main problem. You shouldn't be rewarded for that and it entirely incentivizes the losing fighter to actively try to get it thrown out, like you said. Because in that case getting thrown out isn't even a punishment, it's just ending the fight early and not putting it on the record lol.

So based on what I can see Omnoi's solution makes a lot of sense. The main incentive to fight is their pay, not their record. If I get docked purse money for non-engagement, AND still lose the fight then gambler money is still moving and I'm getting paid less. So the people that bet on me still lose their money, and I lose my own money on top of that. Lose lose all around, definitely makes me want to engage more. The only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense is if the winning fighter, being the winning fighter, is playing the keepaway game and gets penalized for it. The losing fighter could entice the winning fighter to come forward at HIM or else he risks being docked his winning purse. This is the part that is going to need diligence from the referees imo. It's up to the losing fighter to chase down the winner, not vice versa, but if the refs deem the winner to be 'running away' or participating in 'non-engagement' he could be penalized for simply backward fighting which is a massive issue, at least to me. It's up to the referee's discretion, which isn't great in itself. Hopefully the stadiums recognize the backward fighting as an integral part of the sport and don't penalize winners for it.

Edited by Tyler from Florida
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tyler from Florida said:

If they're still getting paid even after being thrown out, I believe that would be the main problem.

The problem is, much more money is (potentially) made through gambling, than through fighter pay. Not only is there a social obligation to those who gamble on you, which is more important than a fight purse, the money involved is also greater. And, your gym itself is likely gambling. You fight for your gym, not for individual gain. If a fighter is dancing off it's because their gym has signaled for them to do so. It isn't an individual decision. For instance we were told that a recent kid fight resulted in 100,000 baht tip out for the win.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

The problem is, much more money is (potentially) made through gambling, than through fighter pay. Not only is there a social obligation to those who gamble on you, which is more important than a fight purse, the money involved is also greater. And, your gym itself is likely gambling. You fight for your gym, not for individual gain. If a fighter is dancing off it's because their gym has signaled for them to do so. It isn't an individual decision. For instance we were told that a recent kid fight resulted in 100,000 baht tip out for the win.

Right, so not-losing and saving the gamblers is as important or more important than just their fight purse. Hard to reconcile that then. What's your take on the Omnoi stadium solution in that case? In the case they get docked but don't get thrown out, they'd still be losing their gambler's money too right? I would hope the purse-docking only applies to the fighter who refuses to chase his opponent and not the fighter who fights backwards, but it would probably apply to both if the idea is a westernization and to incentivize a clashing of heads, which would be massively unfortunate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • I think people don't even understand what it was that ONE did. It had almost nothing to do with small gloves, or rulesets or aggression or any of that. It bought up the most developed Thai talent (which was quite cheap, and many past prime) and then poured massive amounts of marketing dollars into taking over comms, and absolutely controlling messaging in very small information ecosystems, squeezing out almost all other content...and used this to create a constant "commercial" of how massive a success it was. They could have done comm control with a totally different combat sport product and have had the very same, if not even better success. It was about manufactured digital footprint.  So when Entertainment Muay Thai tries to model itself on ONE promotional rulesets and styles its actually copying the wrong thing. There is some benefit to mirroring the style and ethos that ONE already seeded the ecosystems with, because all that groundwork has been done, and it changed consumption...but it actually wasn't all the aggression, or the scoring kind or even the knockouts. It was much much more about the sizzle and not much to do about the steak. Its actually the systematic control over messaging, from SEO link farming and story planting, to buying up social media sharing circles and influencers, all the narrative shaping. Traditional Muay Thai as a product is probably even MORE amenable as a product than the made up sport that ONE created. It has massive valuation in terms of depth of complexity (deeper retention investment), historical material (narratives to be driven), and overall skill level. Trad Muay Thai as it bent toward Entertainment versions has copied the wrong thing.  
    • from the same article above, this is one of the primary confusions about traditional Muay Thai...it is not primarily "labor". As Stiegler conditions the difference it is "work" as it involves the "techniques of the self and others" and leads to the "trans-formatio of oneself" and others. In this sense it is vital as a form of work in the field of potential violence.  
    • Why the preservation of traditional Muay Thai, its kaimuay origins and socio-cultural knowledge especially as it relates to violence and the affects matter...diversity of knowledge matters: Only by understanding work in this way can we identify the exosomatic innovations (whether technical or technological) actually required by and compatible with a desirable future for a locality …. This is the work of noesis, that is, of thinking, in all its forms, and as practical as well as theoretical, familial, artisanal, sporting and artistic knowledge, and thus theoretical, juridical and spiritual knowledge in the broadest sense. This belongs to what we therefore call noodiversity and noodiversification.  - Stiegler  Technophany_Entropies_V3N1_AA.pdf  
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • Hi all, Does anyone know of any suppliers for blanks (Plain items to design and print a logo on) that are a good quality? Or put me in the right direction? thanks all  
    • The first fight between Poot Lorlek and Posai Sittiboonlert was recently uploaded to youtube. Posai is one of the earliest great Muay Khao fighters and influential to Dieselnoi, but there's very little footage of him. Poot is one of the GOATs and one of Posai's best wins, it's really cool to see how Posai's style looked against another elite fighter.
    • Yeah, this is certainly possible. Thanks! I just like the idea of a training camp pre-fight because of focus and getting more "locked in".. Do you know of any high level gyms in europe you would recommend? 
    • You could just pick a high-level gym in a European city, just live and train there for however long you want (a month?). Lots of gyms have morning and evening classes.
    • Hi, i have a general question concerning Muay-Thai training camps, are there any serious ones in Europe at all? I know there are some for kickboxing in the Netherlands, but that's not interesting to me or what i aim for. I have found some regarding Muay-Thai in google searches, but what iv'e found seem to be only "retreats" with Muay-Thai on a level compareable to fitness-boxing, yoga or mindfullness.. So what i look for, but can't seem to find anywhere, are camps similar to those in Thailand. Grueling, high-intensity workouts with trainers who have actually fought and don't just do this as a hobby/fitness regime. A place where you can actually grow, improve technique and build strength and gas-tank with high intensity, not a vacation... No hate whatsoever to those who do fitness-boxing and attend retreats like these, i just find it VERY ODD that there ain't any training camps like those in Thailand out there, or perhaps i haven't looked good enough?..  Appericiate all responses, thank you! 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.5k
×
×
  • Create New...