Beginner sparring

[threeoaks]

The foot injury described in another thread inspired this question:  can you experienced people please describe common and very SPECIFIC beginner's mistakes in sparring?  I am not talking about going too hard and trying to "win"; I want to know about common & pointlessly destructive "flinches" like the elbow reaction that broke someone's foot.  

I don't know when I will be cleared to spar by my doc and my trainer but I'm excited (and have done in regular boxing) but I am big and don't really want to injure someone like that.  Just visited an 12 year old girl who was concussed pretty bad at my daughter's karate school.  I am not afraid of violence, just want to know what types of control you all notice are commonly underdeveloped in Muay Thai beginners.  

I have already read Damion Trainor's and Sean Fagan's posts on the subjects and again, I am not a total tool - I have sparred in boxing somewhat - I am just moved to inquire because though I am training teep defense, I am not yet aware of things like that elbow jerk tendency.

Thanks!

[NewThai]

Common things I've experienced with newer people in spar include the elbow crunch to protect from a front kick, late checks against body kicks that become elbow spikes to the shin, and generally being too tense, which leads to flinch responses to everything and firing hard counters.

 

I've been pretty fortunate so far with having experienced partners who haven't injured me when I was green (and now being experienced enough to avoid injury with new greenies). Stuff happens sometimes though, so I try not to stress about it and enjoy the training.

[threeoaks]

Common things I've experienced with newer people in spar include the elbow crunch to protect from a front kick, late checks against body kicks that become elbow spikes to the shin, and generally being too tense, which leads to flinch responses to everything and firing hard counters.

 

I've been pretty fortunate so far with having experienced partners who haven't injured me when I was green (and now being experienced enough to avoid injury with new greenies). Stuff happens sometimes though, so I try not to stress about it and enjoy the training.

Thank you this is exactly what I am looking for.  Appreciate it NewThai! (now I frigging wanna go spar.. relaxed.. except NOW.  injury is a bore).

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

The foot injury described in another thread inspired this question:  can you experienced people please describe common and very SPECIFIC beginner's mistakes in sparring?  I am not talking about going too hard and trying to "win"; I want to know about common & pointlessly destructive "flinches" like the elbow reaction that broke someone's foot.  

I don't know when I will be cleared to spar by my doc and my trainer but I'm excited (and have done in regular boxing) but I am big and don't really want to injure someone like that.  Just visited an 12 year old girl who was concussed pretty bad at my daughter's karate school.  I am not afraid of violence, just want to know what types of control you all notice are commonly underdeveloped in Muay Thai beginners.  

I have already read Damion Trainor's and Sean Fagan's posts on the subjects and again, I am not a total tool - I have sparred in boxing somewhat - I am just moved to inquire because though I am training teep defense, I am not yet aware of things like that elbow jerk tendency.

Thanks!

Being hesitant about kicking leads to A) leaning back too much and B) not turning over on the kick; neither of which is a mortal sin but it creates an upward angle that leads to knee-to-knee collisions on blocks and is easier to end up kicking into an elbow instead of getting a shin into the body or against a proper block. You won't hurt your partner this way, but you will hurt yourself. I guess the knee-to-knee thing hurts both of you.

Slow your roll enough to land knees deliberately, both so you don't go too hard, but also so you don't knee people in the junk (male and female) when you go for straight shots. I fucking hate this.

[threeoaks]

Being hesitant about kicking leads to A) leaning back too much and B) not turning over on the kick; neither of which is a mortal sin but it creates an upward angle that leads to knee-to-knee collisions on blocks and is easier to end up kicking into an elbow instead of getting a shin into the body or against a proper block. You won't hurt your partner this way, but you will hurt yourself. I guess the knee-to-knee thing hurts both of you.

Slow your roll enough to land knees deliberately, both so you don't go too hard, but also so you don't knee people in the junk (male and female) when you go for straight shots. I fucking hate this.

OOHHH!!!  This is like a goldmine.  Thank you.  I see the more experienced people going slo-mo with their kicks in doubles padwork and I really appreciate it because I can see the shape of the kick better.  This means the angle is super visible to me and since I don't produce that downward arc yet I can really emulate it.  Now your points about knee to knee contact with hesitated kicks makes sense.  So be deliberate but not all jerky about it.  I better shadow a LOT.  As for knees I am so far from sparring with knees its crazy but yes - no nuts, no crotch shots.  Oof.  Again - priceless.

[Tyler Byers]

Nothing to add here yet (I will keep thinking though), just wanted to say that I dig this thread!

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

OOHHH!!!  This is like a goldmine.  Thank you.  I see the more experienced people going slo-mo with their kicks in doubles padwork and I really appreciate it because I can see the shape of the kick better.  This means the angle is super visible to me and since I don't produce that downward arc yet I can really emulate it.  Now your points about knee to knee contact with hesitated kicks makes sense.  So be deliberate but not all jerky about it.  I better shadow a LOT.  As for knees I am so far from sparring with knees its crazy but yes - no nuts, no crotch shots.  Oof.  Again - priceless.

Shadowing is good, but you should add wall or uppercut bag drills as well. That's so you can feel your kick connecting, which you simply can't in shadow because it never connects to anything. You can kick a wall if you don't have anything else - just do that really slowly and controlled. But you want to feel your shin connecting all at once and put the whole movement together. That will teach you how to get the angle on the kick from start to finish. You can also kick over a short chair or Yoga ball or something, which kind of creates the rainbow arc on kicks.

Here's video of using the wall kicks. I do this a few times every day before shadow to kind of "calibrate" the angle on my kick so I don't lean back too much. It gets me "pushing" into the kick.

[emma]

This thread is nice because I can complain about this for someone else's benefit, haha! One thing that I really can't stand is when people throw punches at my guard rather than aiming them at my face. It's as if some people are trying to hit my gloves, but I suppose it's more that they're not consciously aiming, they're punching just to punch. It ends up being bad for both people because one person isn't learning to block and the other isn't learning to be accurate. As NewThai said, the blocking kicks thing, too. I've had a lot of people bring their elbow down onto my shin instead of bringing the knee up to block, and that hurts a lot. It also leaves them open for head kicks.

This is just a personal one, others might not agree with this one, but it becomes irritating when people want to catch/grab every single kick. I find that it can become a hindrance to learning for beginners because the one kicking is always wary of having them caught, so starts throwing them with less effect (and then you get the problems that Sylvie talked about), and the one catching is less likely to learn to block, so I think it's something that should come later on. This is a question of style for a lot of people, though! 

[threeoaks]

Yay! I am on the road with slow thumbs (cell not laptop) so short response - this is great!

[Tyler Byers]

Raising knees to block teeps as opposed to sweeping it away with a hand. Usually I see this in conjunction with bringing the elbows down or inward. I don't think people do it on purpose, it is more of a defensive reflex (I'm certainly guilty of this one occasionally myself) but it still hurts when you catch someone's knee or shin! I broke a toe again today (this has happened twice now from people raising their knee while I am teeping) while sparring. Part of this is my fault for not teeping higher, or moving forward while teeping. Just something else to keep in mind though :)

[lizm]

Oh I totally agree with what Emma Thomas said - people constantly trying to catch kicks! A few of the guys do that at my gym, and it gets really annoying. I also had my first fight recently - an interclub sparing match - and my opponent tried to catch every single bloody kick I threw. She never succeeded in catching a single one, so there was always this awkward fumble with every kick, and I ended up walking away with a broken toe  :wacko:

 

People not knowing how to sweep in clinching is also a big one - the newer guys often get all macho and go for these massive body slams, which is just not necessary, and can be dangerous for your team mates! Or they hesitate, and don't commit, so they fall on you (I have been guilty of that one  :unsure: )

[emma]

We have a girl at my gym right now who is a classic case. She spars mega hard, but will stop in the middle of the round and complain to the trainers if she thinks anyone else is using any power at all. One of those who can give it but can't take it, and thinks everyone else is the problem. She genuinely doesn't know that she's doing it, which makes it difficult. She throws a bit of a tantrum even when people are going light with her, and then talks back to the trainers when they try and tell her what's really happening. It's all very awkward. I was sparring with her yesterday and let her know that my left shin was a bit banged up from my last fight and also that I was due to fight in two days, and she still tried to smash me, and dug her elbow into one of my legs when blocking. As a result, I was walking with a slight limp just before a fight and feeling rather grumpy about it, haha! She's here for a month, and we're trying to work on it, so I will let you know if we manage to improve the situation somewhat.

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

This thread is nice because I can complain about this for someone else's benefit, haha! One thing that I really can't stand is when people throw punches at my guard rather than aiming them at my face. It's as if some people are trying to hit my gloves, but I suppose it's more that they're not consciously aiming, they're punching just to punch. It ends up being bad for both people because one person isn't learning to block and the other isn't learning to be accurate.

Reading this I thought, "wait, do I do this when we spar?" I think that's a result of being unfocused and so people default to what they learn in padwork, which is aiming for the mitts. Gloves = mitts.  Great note of learning to be mindful of this though, because you'll totally bring that to fights without realizing it.

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Raising knees to block teeps as opposed to sweeping it away with a hand. Usually I see this in conjunction with bringing the elbows down or inward. I don't think people do it on purpose, it is more of a defensive reflex (I'm certainly guilty of this one occasionally myself) but it still hurts when you catch someone's knee or shin! I broke a toe again today (this has happened twice now from people raising their knee while I am teeping) while sparring. Part of this is my fault for not teeping higher, or moving forward while teeping. Just something else to keep in mind though :)

Blocking teeps with knees is totally reasonable. I can see why you would not want to do it in training through, as it can result in the bruised or broken feet. You just have to bring the knee up much higher, I think, so you're not catching people's toes.

[threeoaks]

We have a girl at my gym right now who is a classic case. She spars mega hard, but will stop in the middle of the round and complain to the trainers if she thinks anyone else is using any power at all. One of those who can give it but can't take it, and thinks everyone else is the problem. She genuinely doesn't know that she's doing it, which makes it difficult. She throws a bit of a tantrum even when people are going light with her, and then talks back to the trainers when they try and tell her what's really happening. It's all very awkward. I was sparring with her yesterday and let her know that my left shin was a bit banged up from my last fight and also that I was due to fight in two days, and she still tried to smash me, and dug her elbow into one of my legs when blocking. As a result, I was walking with a slight limp just before a fight and feeling rather grumpy about it, haha! She's here for a month, and we're trying to work on it, so I will let you know if we manage to improve the situation somewhat.

Eh is it not right to just bang her up a little, make it clear what going hard actually is?  Oh you said she gets all nutty and doesn't listen.  Oy.  Sounds super annoying.

[threeoaks]

Reading this I thought, "wait, do I do this when we spar?" I think that's a result of being unfocused and so people default to what they learn in padwork, which is aiming for the mitts. Gloves = mitts.  Great note of learning to be mindful of this though, because you'll totally bring that to fights without realizing it.

Just got put on notice for this today.  Oops.  Wish I read it first.  Thanks!

[emma]

Eh is it not right to just bang her up a little, make it clear what going hard actually is?  Oh you said she gets all nutty and doesn't listen.  Oy.  Sounds super annoying.

Actually, we had a bit of an altercation yesterday, and it has become clear that she is beyond help. I should add that she has been having the same problems with everyone in the gym and constantly complains no matter what. When the trainers and Master Toddy try to tell her how to adjust things, she is incredibly rude and talks back to them, saying that she is right and telling them what her trainer at home says, which, as you can imagine, does not go down well. It's all quite embarrassing. She's told the trainers that they aren't holding pads properly, too. This is a complete beginner, here.

We were sparring and to be fair, she was going very light, as was I. She doesn't block punches at all, so I was touching her only very lightly with my gloves to let her know that she was open, but she didn't like that. We got maybe two rounds in before she said 'can you go light? because you asked me to go light' I'd usually be very polite and reasonable, but I was already doing basically nothing there was simply no way I could have gone any lighter unless I shadowboxed in front of her, so I told her that. Frankly, we're all fed up of her shit, so it's hard to be patient with her. We started adding kicks and she got really angry any time I landed any on her, even though we were both still going super light. She stopped again to complain, and I started to wonder what the fuck was going on. This is the first time I've ever called anyone out in the gym. I told her that if she didn't want me to touch her at all, she ought to block, and that I was trying to help her learn how to do that. I also mentioned that she was getting annoyed because she wasn't 'winning' and that she does nothing but complain in every single training session. She said 'actually you are the one who is complaining', and I had no response, because none of this made sense. I just carried on sparring because I didn't want to waste time, but at this point, landing anything on her was too much for her to handle, so she stopped and said 'I'm done here, I'm going on the bag'. One of the trainers waved her off and said 'OK, then go!' He couldn't be bothered to deal with her, because she's like this all the time. 

Shortly after this, she was kicking the bag when Master Toddy approached her and said something like 'that's good, much better. Now, to take it up to the next level, you can start turning your hip over a bit more to get more power'. She screwed up her face and said 'but my trainer at home doesn't tell me to do that', refusing to do it. Well, he WENT OFF at her. This is the same attitude he's had from her the whole time he's been here. He said (because she is studying teaching) 'if you had a student who kept telling you that you were wrong and didn't want to do anything you told them and fought you back all the time, would you still teach them? Would you?' She said 'yes'. SERIOUSLY, SHE WAS STILL TALKING BACK AT THIS POINT. His response was, 'I can't help you. Go your own way', and off he went. 

We've had some frustrating people come through here at times, but she is undoubtedly the worst. She's here for another week before she goes to another gym for a couple of months. Should be interesting! I don't understand why anyone would pay to be taught at a gym and then not actually want to learn anything.

Sylvie wrote a post about why people sometimes think their opponent is going harder than they are:

 Brain Science: Why Sparring Gets Out of Control – Neurology and Muay Thai

[Kelly Creegan]

Ha ha emma im so glad toddy said something to her!! I dont know why she is in thailand at all! I would have askes her what her gym was at home then said it was shit!!

[coffeeandbruises]

Quote from Sylvie

Reading this I thought, "wait, do I do this when we spar?" I think that's a result of being unfocused and so people default to what they learn in padwork, which is aiming for the mitts. Gloves = mitts.  Great note of learning to be mindful of this though, because you'll totally bring that to fights without realizing it.

Great quote which (unfortunately) sums up my training session the other day! I started attending the boxing session that runs before Muay Thai. I spent half the session struggling to hit the focus pads full on. I decided my lack of accuracy was due to becoming sloppy as I take for granted the larger surface of the Thai pad - I don't need to be accurate because if I punch in the general direction of a Thai pads, chances are I will hit it! Directly after, during a technical sparring session my trainer kept pointing out how inaccurate my punches were - punching gloves, air and even someone's chest! It definitely made me reflect on how I train, and how it effects my sparring.

Which I think underlies a lot of sparring issues. Muay Thai exposes weakness - whether it be technical, physical, or even emotional. Some people aren't comfortable with that and don't like to reflect on 'weakness'.

[threeoaks]

 

Actually, we had a bit of an altercation yesterday, and it has become clear that she is beyond help. I should add that she has been having the same problems with everyone in the gym and constantly complains no matter what. When the trainers and Master Toddy try to tell her how to adjust things, she is incredibly rude and talks back to them, saying that she is right and telling them what her trainer at home says, which, as you can imagine, does not go down well. It's all quite embarrassing. She's told the trainers that they aren't holding pads properly, too. This is a complete beginner, here.

We were sparring and to be fair, she was going very light, as was I. She doesn't block punches at all, so I was touching her only very lightly with my gloves to let her know that she was open, but she didn't like that. We got maybe two rounds in before she said 'can you go light? because you asked me to go light' I'd usually be very polite and reasonable, but I was already doing basically nothing there was simply no way I could have gone any lighter unless I shadowboxed in front of her, so I told her that. Frankly, we're all fed up of her shit, so it's hard to be patient with her. We started adding kicks and she got really angry any time I landed any on her, even though we were both still going super light. She stopped again to complain, and I started to wonder what the fuck was going on. This is the first time I've ever called anyone out in the gym. I told her that if she didn't want me to touch her at all, she ought to block, and that I was trying to help her learn how to do that. I also mentioned that she was getting annoyed because she wasn't 'winning' and that she does nothing but complain in every single training session. She said 'actually you are the one who is complaining', and I had no response, because none of this made sense. I just carried on sparring because I didn't want to waste time, but at this point, landing anything on her was too much for her to handle, so she stopped and said 'I'm done here, I'm going on the bag'. One of the trainers waved her off and said 'OK, then go!' He couldn't be bothered to deal with her, because she's like this all the time. 

Shortly after this, she was kicking the bag when Master Toddy approached her and said something like 'that's good, much better. Now, to take it up to the next level, you can start turning your hip over a bit more to get more power'. She screwed up her face and said 'but my trainer at home doesn't tell me to do that', refusing to do it. Well, he WENT OFF at her. This is the same attitude he's had from her the whole time he's been here. He said (because she is studying teaching) 'if you had a student who kept telling you that you were wrong and didn't want to do anything you told them and fought you back all the time, would you still teach them? Would you?' She said 'yes'. SERIOUSLY, SHE WAS STILL TALKING BACK AT THIS POINT. His response was, 'I can't help you. Go your own way', and off he went. 

We've had some frustrating people come through here at times, but she is undoubtedly the worst. She's here for another week before she goes to another gym for a couple of months. Should be interesting! I don't understand why anyone would pay to be taught at a gym and then not actually want to learn anything.

Sylvie wrote a post about why people sometimes think their opponent is going harder than they are:

 Brain Science: Why Sparring Gets Out of Control – Neurology and Muay Thai

 

She's lucky you did your best to alert her to her jackassery, and she got a nice direct telling off by Master Toddy, and now DOWN she goes, never to get better.  Its my most feared brand of fuckery in life - to be unteachable.  Arrogance almost always equals stupidity.  Pity the fool (or just get rid of her).  I appreciate your generosity though Emma.   Its understandable to want to never spar with beginners of course.   I obviously don't want to give someone a nagging, pointless injury, hence the thread.  But I'll never get better without people being willing to go at it with me, and to tell me my mistakes directly, instead of grumbling privately.  Thanks again.

[lawrencekenshin]

 

Actually, we had a bit of an altercation yesterday, and it has become clear that she is beyond help. I should add that she has been having the same problems with everyone in the gym and constantly complains no matter what. When the trainers and Master Toddy try to tell her how to adjust things, she is incredibly rude and talks back to them, saying that she is right and telling them what her trainer at home says, which, as you can imagine, does not go down well. It's all quite embarrassing. She's told the trainers that they aren't holding pads properly, too. This is a complete beginner, here.

We were sparring and to be fair, she was going very light, as was I. She doesn't block punches at all, so I was touching her only very lightly with my gloves to let her know that she was open, but she didn't like that. We got maybe two rounds in before she said 'can you go light? because you asked me to go light' I'd usually be very polite and reasonable, but I was already doing basically nothing there was simply no way I could have gone any lighter unless I shadowboxed in front of her, so I told her that. Frankly, we're all fed up of her shit, so it's hard to be patient with her. We started adding kicks and she got really angry any time I landed any on her, even though we were both still going super light. She stopped again to complain, and I started to wonder what the fuck was going on. This is the first time I've ever called anyone out in the gym. I told her that if she didn't want me to touch her at all, she ought to block, and that I was trying to help her learn how to do that. I also mentioned that she was getting annoyed because she wasn't 'winning' and that she does nothing but complain in every single training session. She said 'actually you are the one who is complaining', and I had no response, because none of this made sense. I just carried on sparring because I didn't want to waste time, but at this point, landing anything on her was too much for her to handle, so she stopped and said 'I'm done here, I'm going on the bag'. One of the trainers waved her off and said 'OK, then go!' He couldn't be bothered to deal with her, because she's like this all the time. 

Shortly after this, she was kicking the bag when Master Toddy approached her and said something like 'that's good, much better. Now, to take it up to the next level, you can start turning your hip over a bit more to get more power'. She screwed up her face and said 'but my trainer at home doesn't tell me to do that', refusing to do it. Well, he WENT OFF at her. This is the same attitude he's had from her the whole time he's been here. He said (because she is studying teaching) 'if you had a student who kept telling you that you were wrong and didn't want to do anything you told them and fought you back all the time, would you still teach them? Would you?' She said 'yes'. SERIOUSLY, SHE WAS STILL TALKING BACK AT THIS POINT. His response was, 'I can't help you. Go your own way', and off he went. 

We've had some frustrating people come through here at times, but she is undoubtedly the worst. She's here for another week before she goes to another gym for a couple of months. Should be interesting! I don't understand why anyone would pay to be taught at a gym and then not actually want to learn anything.

Sylvie wrote a post about why people sometimes think their opponent is going harder than they are:

 Brain Science: Why Sparring Gets Out of Control – Neurology and Muay Thai

 

one of the most indicative traits of abusive people and self-centeredness is to blame other people. Might have a psycho in your gym, beware.

[Ichiro]

When I took Educational Psychology in college the professor arranged with a couple classmates (secretly from the rest of the class) to demonstrate how only one or two students can disrupt an entire class. Here is a perfect real world example! This girl has apparently managed to annoy not only the instructors and staff, but all the other students too!   Behavior like this should never be tolerated!  It's both rude and disrespectful!  If someone want's to complain about getting hit to hard when it's not happening, they should get to experience what REAL contact is  :whistling:    They either adjust their attitude or they quit... either way is a win for everyone.   :yes:  

[Ichiro]

Ha ha emma im so glad toddy said something to her!! I dont know why she is in thailand at all! I would have askes her what her gym was at home then said it was shit!!

 

I straight up dont spar with beginners as selfish as it is i dont! Im a southpaw and the amount of injuries i have gotten from beginnery people in sparring is ridiculous! Elbowed feet etc And its those pesky little injuries that make you really mad!

All the experience i have i just can never be like the thais where they throw a really slow light kick with no power then push you flying backwards lol

I'd do one better and contact her instructor :)  How he reacted to the news that one of his students is trashing his reputation as an instructor would probably be enlightening ;)

When someone teaches they usually don't have a choice about sparring with beginners... comes with the territory :)  I'm also a southpaw so I can relate   :yes:

[Maya Flores]

I'd do one better and contact her instructor :)  How he reacted to the news that one of his students is trashing his reputation as an instructor would probably be enlightening ;)

When someone teaches they usually don't have a choice about sparring with beginners... comes with the territory :)  I'm also a southpaw so I can relate   :yes:

On your being a southpaw and sparring---do you find it's easier or harder to spar with another southpaw? A woman at the gym is southpaw and we spar now and then. I tried switching to southpaw and that worked okay for avoiding her southpaw kicks, but my offense was mostly punches because my left kick telegraphs a lot. From your perspective, would it be worth it to keep sparring lefty with a lefty and righty with a righty? Or should I just stick to righty and try to improve that side a lot? fyi, I sometimes switch to lefty without realizing it and then I'm stuck as lefty for a while.

Thanks! ♦

[NewThai]

I spar our southpaws in orthodox as I spar everyone else. I may switch stance for certain moves, but that is dependent on the opening and not solely their stance.