Cultural Appropriation

[Isaac]

Hey all, what do you think responsibilities of firang/foreigners to protect the intellectual property of martial arts and martial sports?

Context: I searched “Lethwei” (Burmese sibling of Muay Thai, no gloves+head butts) in the US Patent and Trademark Office, and found someone in the US trademarked the word, “Lethwei”!!!! That someone is a firang—like myself—and therefore IMO conducted...cultural appropriation.

Can you imagine someone trademarking “Muay Thai,” or “boxing” for that matter?

I feel like this is a huge dishonor to the culture from where these sports and arts come....

I love Muay Thai, Lethwei, appreciate the Vipassana Buddhist (but not exclusively) cultures surrounding many practices...  and am disappointed by this: it’s theft. 

Anyone care to share thoughts? I understand and accept my view may be very different from others’.

[AndyMaBobs]

It's appropriation in the literal sense, rather than in the buzzword sense. 

Cannot say I know about lethwei being trademarked... but I have a funny feeling I know which particular crowd would have done it.

[Isaac]

It’s one particular person. Public information—on the USPTO website.

[LengLeng]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:08 AM, Isaac said:

It’s one particular person. Public information—on the USPTO website.

I looked him up did not seem to have any particular connection to Myanmar, rater Thailand and Cambodia. But couldn't it be someone linked to WLC or something as part of the plans of making lethwei more internationally known? There are many scenarios where an American person can hold a trademark but it could still benefit Myanmar people. But I am fully with you regarding your concern about this. 

Interestingly enough that the trademark muay thai is up for grabs...

[Isaac]

Look him up on Instagram. Think just a gym coach.

[LengLeng]

I actually worked on something similar years back. It related to the San people of Namibia and their right to their own traditional medicinal knowledge. Many western companies profit on selling devil’s claw and the hoodia plant for various ailments which is based on the Sans's people traditions and knowledge and whether there is a way to protect or patent/trademark indigenous people's knowledge. Basically the companies would have to ask the San people for permission and give them parts of their profits. There's a group of lawyers working on this in SA I believe. 

Another case related to Biltong, spicy dried meat from southern parts of Africa that started gaining popularity in Europe. I discovered that a European person had registered the name Biltong as a trademark in the whole of EU and by talking to various EU offices I found out there are some ways to contest it. In this case we didn't move forward as the trademark was about to expire and the holder didn't renew. 

But it is a really interesting question. What makes a person want to register a sport based on thousand years of tradition in another country? Only money? And whether that's even legal. It would be interesting to find out. I guess you could ask him? 

[Oliver]

Or we needn't even go that far - how about the 'appropriation' that comes from people of the same culture? Bikram Yoga might be the most gross example, guy becomes a cult leader gazillionaire with 10 Bentley by trademarking and franchising yoga poses that he in no way created. In fact, he probably suckered in way more customers than he otherwise would have precisely *because* he was from that culture, so bored white people with wooden beaded necklaces and Venti Skinny Cappuccinos were happy to become acolytes of somebody 'authentic', and even boast about how great their new charlatan master was. Because the unspoken translation of 'how great my teacher is' actually communicates a subtle 'how great I am' for being his student. Total humblebrag. And then the lawsuits started to pile up. And all these idiots respond with "Oh my god, I can't believe he could be such a monster". Like the news talking to the bewildered next door neighbour of a suicide bomber.

Watching just one interview with Bikram gives any sane, reasonably minded individual the chills. Vacant eyeballs, manipulative speech, glaring NPD. The problem isn't 'Cultural Appropriation' - nothing wrong with an Italian restaurant with Mexicans in the kitchen. The problem is with kind of people comprise the general public. The army that self-form and follow the appropriation, even when it's done by bad people with a weak disguise. That's the truly terrifying thing.

[Isaac]

Apparently was for money. Wanted to make a “baller move,” since his buddy did it with the related martial art from Cambodia. It’s “entrepreneurship.” More like white privilege. So disappointing.

[Oliver]

....bet any money they're gonna bring out a 'Taking a Knee' emoji soon

[LengLeng]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:59 PM, Isaac said:

Apparently was for money. Wanted to make a “baller move,” since his buddy did it with the related martial art from Cambodia. It’s “entrepreneurship.” More like white privilege. So disappointing.

Yeah very disappointing. WLC is run by some powerful Myanmar business people though (of at least one as far as I know)..one of them recently posted on Facebook he wanted to buy a village in Sweden that's for sale. Maybe they two could team up . 

[LengLeng]

On 6/16/2020 at 2:39 PM, Oliver said:

Or we needn't even go that far - how about the 'appropriation' that comes from people of the same culture? Bikram Yoga might be the most gross example, guy becomes a cult leader gazillionaire with 10 Bentley by trademarking and franchising yoga poses that he in no way created. In fact, he probably suckered in way more customers than he otherwise would have precisely *because* he was from that culture, so bored white people with wooden beaded necklaces and Venti Skinny Cappuccinos were happy to become acolytes of somebody 'authentic', and even boast about how great their new charlatan master was. Because the unspoken translation of 'how great my teacher is' actually communicates a subtle 'how great I am' for being his student. Total humblebrag. And then the lawsuits started to pile up. And all these idiots respond with "Oh my god, I can't believe he could be such a monster". Like the news talking to the bewildered next door neighbour of a suicide bomber.

Watching just one interview with Bikram gives any sane, reasonably minded individual the chills. Vacant eyeballs, manipulative speech, glaring NPD. The problem isn't 'Cultural Appropriation' - nothing wrong with an Italian restaurant with Mexicans in the kitchen. The problem is with kind of people comprise the general public. The army that self-form and follow the appropriation, even when it's done by bad people with a weak disguise. That's the truly terrifying thing.

Well.... I mean, there's so much other CA going on in yoga. At least, as an Indian colleague told me, Bikram is a true Indian con artist.

[Oliver]

2 hours ago, LengLeng said:

At least, as an Indian colleague told me, Bikram is a true Indian con artist.

...but...doesn't that make it worse, not better??

[LengLeng]

3 hours ago, Oliver said:

...but...doesn't that make it worse, not better??

i dont know but people were idiots for thinking there's a national championship in yoga in India. 

[Oliver]

12 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

i dont know but people were idiots for thinking there's a national championship in yoga in India. 

That's the general public, LengLeng 

But what you said, right there, that's it - we almost forget about the 'appropriator' if the people he defrauds are dumb enough, or if he's from the culture of the thing he's 'appropriating'. Which really leaves you wondering if there even is such a thing as cultural appropriation. 

Not to piss people off or anything, but it's kind of similar with the whole Bruce Lee thing.  

[LengLeng]

On 6/18/2020 at 10:07 PM, Oliver said:

That's the general public, LengLeng 

But what you said, right there, that's it - we almost forget about the 'appropriator' if the people he defrauds are dumb enough, or if he's from the culture of the thing he's 'appropriating'. Which really leaves you wondering if there even is such a thing as cultural appropriation. 

Not to piss people off or anything, but it's kind of similar with the whole Bruce Lee thing.  

But CA is when a culture borrows/steals/appropriate elements from another culture. In this case, well he misappropriated yoga and the culture of which he is a member and used it to con people from another culture. He sort of made the cultural misappropriation happen and made a lot of money while doing it. Something tells me CA is not really the proper term for what's wrong with that whole situation..

But to get on topic. Are all Muay Thai gyms outside Thailand CA? And if yes, it's that a bad thing? 

[Isaac]

I want to get back to the genesis of this:

some guy, American not from any Asian background let alone fron Myanmar specifically, registered the name of the sport, Lethwei, for his personal trademark to use, charge for use, and sue others for using. Which would including Burmese and other Lethwei folks.

 

some one in this thread noted “Muay Thai” is also not yet registered. Awaiting another pillage? Something to do about it? To whom should the names of the sports belong?

[Oliver]

OK so first time ever, just went and googled Cultural Appropriation. Not convinced this is a bad thing, or that it's even real. Actually wanted to vomit all over my keyboard - there's a lot very masochistic people out there feeling guilty as fuck for being rich and white, so to alleviate this burden they attack other rich white people, and now they feel safer and less evil afterwards, because their penance is done. This 'CA' thing is totally an individual psychology issue, not a society issue.

 

6 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Are all muay Thai gyms outside Thailand CA? And if yes, it's that a bad thing? 

 

Basically yeah, they probably are. And yeah it's a terrible thing, we should all feel like prejudiced, bigoted thieves and colonialists. Maybe it's time to "check my privilege" too. Go and write a Tumblr, gorge on Hagen Daz and masturbate to my tears of remorse  

[LengLeng]

On 6/20/2020 at 12:28 AM, Isaac said:

I want to get back to the genesis of this:

some guy, American not from any Asian background let alone fron Myanmar specifically, registered the name of the sport, Lethwei, for his personal trademark to use, charge for use, and sue others for using. Which would including Burmese and other Lethwei folks.

 

some one in this thread noted “Muay Thai” is also not yet registered. Awaiting another pillage? Something to do about it? To whom should the names of the sports belong?

I think it's sad and awful that this is happening but it's not a new phenomenon and comes with international trade. When I was in university this was part of my studies and I later worked with this to some extent. I wonder if you could claim Myanmar people have the intellectual property right over lethwei or similar. 

@oliver lol at your tears. I believe sometimes the criticism abt CA is relevant but most times it's just stupid. Had people from my own country stress abt whether wearing chitenge (type of textile) they bought in Cape Town is CA. I stressed a bit abt wearing mongkol and doing the ram muay but I asked Thai friends to help me get the blessing right and got someone who's an expert in ram muay teach me properly so I wouldn't disrespect the culture. I hope I didn't.  In Myanmar I sometimes wear the htmain (longyi for women) and thanaka (yellow paste on your cheeks that's also good for your skin) and the Myanmar people get so happy and come and tell me how beautiful how I am whenever I do this. But I'm reluctant to post any photos of it as I don't want uneducated Western friends gonna come with lectures. 

CA is basically mixing cultures and of it's done respectfully I believe it's awesome and beautiful. And it's pretty much part of human cultural evolution. 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

@LengLeng people's misunderstanding or confusion is what leads folks to fret over whether they can wear something they purchased, but that's not a bad thing. Their concern is a good thing. And a lot of times wearing it is fine. The important part of the whole concept of Cultural Appropriate is the "appropriation" part. Yoga in the west is a great example, although it feels more like "reappopropriation" in that context because it's mostly just white-washed.

It's a not a clear-cut thing (the legal licensing of Lethwei is 100% clear cut bullshit), but a very good guide is to look to the culture that one is borrowing from to see whether one's usage is appropriate or not. You don't get to tell someone whether or not their offended, you ask, or listen when they tell you. It's pretty simple.

[Oliver]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:58 AM, LengLeng said:

 

CA is basically mixing cultures and of it's done respectfully I believe it's awesome and beautiful. And it's pretty much part of human cultural evolution. 

Indeed. 

Basically what I said. Or would have said if I had a conscience

[LengLeng]

7 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

@LengLeng people's misunderstanding or confusion is what leads folks to fret over whether they can wear something they purchased, but that's not a bad thing. Their concern is a good thing. And a lot of times wearing it is fine. The important part of the whole concept of Cultural Appropriate is the "appropriation" part. Yoga in the west is a great example, although it feels more like "reappopropriation" in that context because it's mostly just white-washed.

It's a not a clear-cut thing (the legal licensing of Lethwei is 100% clear cut bullshit), but a very good guide is to look to the culture that one is borrowing from to see whether one's usage is appropriate or not. You don't get to tell someone whether or not their offended, you ask, or listen when they tell you. It's pretty simple.

I am not saying cultural appropriation is not complicated or an issue or something that keeps happening and harms minority cultures. I am all in on that. But since white people have a tendency to make everything about ourselves, CA has become something we use to police each other forgetting the original issue and what is healthy, respectful mix of cultures. I have such an issue with white people secretly enjoying being top of the food chain and carry their white guilt gladly. 

I am really interested though in the the issue of CA and muay thai. I haven't visited many Western gyms (only 1 actually) and in that gym they tried to respect the thainess of it but unfortunately the female trainer said Sawasde-krap instead of Sawasdee-kaa having all the students repeating back (I know women can use male particles but I do not think this was the case here). I do not feel that there is CA happening with muay thai, not the same way as in yoga. It is my experience that everybody rates the thai muay thai highest as the most pure version of it and western gyms just trying to imitate the best way they can. And that thai muay thai trainers and gym owners are well aware of this and use it to their advantage. But I do feel there is a westernization of muay thai happening in Thailand with more action-filled shows and I believe Kevin wrote about this and linked it to how Thailand escaped being colonized by civilizing itself and how it has civilized muay thai. 

 

 

[Isaac]

New concept: I would love for us all to have a movement, or trend in the martial arts communities, of spreading the art while not stealing it, learning from it but making sure its endemic voices are heard and not lost in the noise. 

The trademarking of “Lethwei” is an example of commercializing that sport in an exclusionary way. Sylvie’s Vlogs and Preserve the Legacy are a way to implicitly support Muay Thai families’ and their place in the sport. I suggest that we can have a big tent under which we can espouse respect for the origin. Being vocal—doesn’t have to be loud, just vocal. Thoughts?

[LengLeng]

On 6/22/2020 at 7:46 PM, Isaac said:

Sylvie’s Vlogs and Preserve the Legacy are a way to implicitly support Muay Thai families’ and their place in the sport. I suggest that we can have a big tent under which we can espouse respect for the origin. Being vocal—doesn’t have to be loud, just vocal. Thoughts?

I so agree with this. The preserve the legacy and basically everything Sylvie and Kevin do is a beautiful example of sharing a culture without diluting it or disrespecting it. 

The trademarking of lethwei is so sad... especially knowing Myanmar culture a bit and extremely friendly and humble Myanmar people are be they Kachin, Bama, Shan, Chin or any other ethnicity. 

[Isaac]

Yes; since spoke to the individual who described himself as a Muay Thai practitioner—no experience in Lethwei—who wanted to make a “boss move” as an “entrepreneur.” I challenged him that it excludes everyone who actually practices, and... he said it’s too bad but...

i think those of us who disagree with this kind of exclusionary, and frankly predatory, practice can perhaps think of a way to make something like a “Fair Trade”-inspired marker or even rating? I don’t want to shame because negativity breeds more negativity, but I feel it’s like... I and maybe others can start speaking up for people who can’t or need help with amplifying. What does anyone think is the best way to accomplish this??? 

[Oliver]

First ever trip to Thailand and there was this American steroid junkie at the same gym who did something kinda similar. Gonna have to be vague on specific names as it's a true story.

Basically he was a gym owner in the US teaching a different but also very popular martial art. Told us all this story at dinner (or more like ear-raped us and wouldn't shut up). He basically called his gym the same name as the surname of a very famous martial arts family from Latin America, even registered the website. Their family name plus a number, dot com. Which he somehow thought was legit. Head of this family then calls him up and threatens to sue the pants off him if he doesn't take it down. And the American still refused. In fact, he bitches to us like he was a victim, that this big successful family was going after the little guy, and how unfair it was, them trying to stop him making a living.

Totally clueless and lacking in self awareness. Guy is basically a thief, pure and simple. Dunno if that's cultural appropriation or not, probably is by the accepted metric, but here's the thing - we already have morality social guidelines and laws in place to cover things like theft and fraud... So what's the upside in introducing complex new theoretical terminology like CA? What does it give us that we didn't have before.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Oliver
Gave away too many details