Jump to content

Highly Distinct Genders In Thailand - Ka and Krop and everything in between


Recommended Posts

One of the most interesting things for those interested in Thailand's Muay Thai is how Muay Thai itself is a highly stylized expression of Muay Thai, or what some call hypermasculinity. One of the more striking things about Thai language for those first learning it, coming from the west, is how speakers end speech with a gendered polite particle, ka or krop, basically positioning the speaker, as gendered in an almost constant process of self-declaration. This performed division of the genders may even have helped give rise to the very notions of gender fluidity that allow trans persons to simply adopt the particle of the trans- gender they are moving toward. In this sense Thailand is both rather rigid, and also fluid.

But, this is really what I'm writing about here. This gendered division, along with very hyperstylized versions of gender both feminine and masculine, is thought to not even really BE Thai, at least in a certain dimension of analysis. The stark distinctions between genders is thought to have arisen in the early part of the 19th century when Thailand (then Siam) faced extraordinary pressure from the west to "self-civilize"). In otherwords, "you better become a lot more like US, or you will get colonized (ie, civilized)". The division of the genders both visually (gendered dress was government imposed in the periods that followed), and also in terms of speech (I believe the imposition of these gendered particles) came from this somewhat radical, and also Thai-flavored adoption of western gender values, with those Victorian roots.

Of note, this self-civilization also is what likely brought about the adoption of gloves in Muay Thai (then simply Muay). So, when you say "ka" or "krop" at the end of a Thai sentence, you are also reliving the forces that also gloved the hands of Thailand's boxers.

  • Like 2
  • Cool 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there any links to this you got? For the linguistic history of the m/f versions of the same words?

Loads of other languages have this. Places in Eastern Europe, even your name. Like, if your surname was Kevin it would be 'Kevinski', but if you were a chick it would be 'Kevinska'. Pretty cool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting! I just wanted to drop this article here, too - How Thai Language Reinforces Hierarchy and Perpetuates Social Divides

Quote

 

"In a lot of cases, Thai pronouns are strictly gendered.

The word phom, in Thai, can be used to describe two different things. It acts as a pronoun for Thai men to address themselves and also a noun that describes hair.

“And that is not a coincidence,” said Dockum. “Phom refers to the hairs on the top of the head and as an exalted part of the body.”

On the other hand, Thai women face a wider set of pronouns navigate through, from di-chanchanraonhoo, to even addressing their own names.

Let’s look at di-chan as one example. It is a pronoun Thai women often use to refer to themselves, but most Thai women and Thais alike are likely unaware of its origins.

Di-chan is a pronoun that has been eroded over time, but it originally came from the word de-raj-chan, which means a beast or animal.

Another somewhat endearing term, nhoo, has a more direct and straightforward meaning. When you are referring to yourself as nhoo, you are basically calling yourself a mouse.

“Why condone oneself to such a level? You are not a mouse, no matter how sweet or endearing it is. It is incorrect and truly offensive,” Tuptim said.

“It comes from an infantilisation of women and of keeping them youthful,” explains Dockum, “I remember I saw a woman in her 40s talking to a man in his 60s and calling herself nhoo. She was basically saying ‘I am a child in this position in relation to you,’ and therefore treating him with respect.”

When you are navigating Thai pronouns, you are also navigating your own identity, worth, and power  — where you ultimately stand in society."

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Gamma 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Oliver said:

Loads of other languages have this. Places in Eastern Europe, even your name. Like, if your surname was Kevin it would be 'Kevinski', but if you were a chick it would be 'Kevinska'. Pretty cool.

Yes, this is quite different than what I'm talking about. This isn't really the gendered, vestigial grouping of words for things in the world. This is the declaration of your own gender, after every sentence or extended expression, through a polite particle. It is a constant, and some might say continuous political act embedded in the very act of speaking. It is repeated over and over and over, positioning the speaker.

I don't have links for this, it's just something I've come upon in my reading. You can search for papers around the term "semi-colony" or I believe "self-civilizing" for discussions about Thailand's move to western modernity. As to the polite particle, I can't recall where I read that this use was a modern invention. Several papers discuss that the visual distinction between the genders was part of the modernization of Thailand (according to Western values), in fact there were laws passed during dictatorship which pressured this change. Siamese/Thais were basically forced to dress like "men" and "women" in a western fashion, as part of the modernization of the Nation.

What is interesting is that the past has a way of reshaping itself before our eyes. When we come to Thailand we have the very distinct sense that we are witnessing something uber "Thai" when we encounter these gendered distinctions; it feels "classical", or extremely traditional, and in a sense it is. But what we don't sense is that this is in many ways just a reflection of ourselves, as the West exerted itself on the region.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • Like the Santi Ubon Muay Thai gym mentioned above, Siriluck gym in Udonthani was thoroughly reviewed in our forum, and sounds very much like a similar style gym. We have no experience with the gym, but perhaps the author of the post would respond to questions.  
    • Taking Privates in Thailand Listen. Taking privates in Thailand is NOT Authentic in the usual sense, but...if you've read my article post above (and clicked through to the rest) you will absolutely understand when I say: Take privates in Thailand. And take them especially from great ex-fighters and krus. Because the traditional path to elite, Golden Age Muay Thai no longer really exists in Thailand, or at the very least is highly fragmented, learning directly from the men who lived and were shaped by that process in concentrated one-on-one sessions is probably the best single thing you can do. These skills, that knowledge, was not developed in that way (one on one instruction), but these men hold knowledge that nobody on earth holds, come out of their own experiences and their continuous living in the sport especially at the highest Age of its development. There is no replacement, and its time is limited. So, while you will not be learning in the kaimuay churn in these sessions, and instead will be directly interacting with a great fighter or kru, what is being taught is in some ways the most authentic. And, if you aren't in Thailand, the Muay Thai Library is probably your only way of coming in consistent contact with it (aside from having such a great Thai kru yourself).  
    • How Authentic is Your Muay Thai Gym in Thailand? this is a totally idiosyncratic, somewhat in fun, somewhat in all seriousness list of traits that can be added up. If the gym adds up to over 110 it's officially "authentic". This is just to add detail and perspective, not a real judgement.
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own.  2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season.  One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
    • Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. 
    • If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works.
    • Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!   
    • Have you looked at venum elite 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.1k
×
×
  • Create New...