1990's female fighters.

[Rosy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=n7HwHoZmPVE 

Mary Hart an Icon of 1990/2000's female global Muay Thai scene- this generation was kind of usurped by the new and sunshiney new sport of womens boxing ... into which most of the former generation of female muay thai fighters had drained- these women stayed put maintaining high standards in one of the most difficult times for women in the sport- pre internet - pre interest from Thailand ... I believe the interest from Thailand circa 2000 was desperately needed but the fact is they caved to international pressure - their women were beaten consistently until A few enlightened Thai's paid the female scene the attention it deserved. This is actually a key moment in my life - to live through Thailand taking a 180 regarding females in Muay Thai has given my a belief that any dogma can change- Muay Thai has been an example to me in so many ways - I am very thankful for it.

 

 

Yes, I can't find much about it. But heard that they are good clinchers also (they put time in it!).
I will update this topic with my expierences there to inform others.

 

 

They gave me some link to an apartment that is close to them. But maybe it's better to do live-research when I arrive. To see what I can find, unfortunalty I don't speak Thai but I will try to find the best one.

Opinions on their link are also welcome;
https://www.facebook.com/slresidence54
http://www.slresidence.com/contactus-1.html

 

 

Yes I read (and heard) this before and will follow these rule to not bond me to a gym to soon. Thank you!

 

 

[Rosy]

meanwhile in America at 112lbs/50kg - The incredible Kim Messer v super tough Yvonne Trevino - amazing the performances these fighters could put on with only a handful of fights behind them.

[threeoaks]

Rosy I love this topic & perspective. Got to do chores & then look forward to watching the fights. Thank you so much.

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Rosy, I had the opportunity to interview the Editor in Chief of Champ boxing magazine here in Thailand (she's been the editor for a very long time now but was a writer for them since the 70's) and when I asked her about Thailand's about-face in lifting the ban on female fighters she said she didn't remember there ever being one.  To be quite clear, she only wrote about Muay Thai in the big Bangkok stadia (Rajadamnern and Lumpinee) so her thumb was definitely not on the pulse of female fighters at all, but when she asked me where I'd heard about the out-lawing of female fighters I honesty had no source.

Do you have one that I can reference?

[Rosy]

Hello Sylvie - sorry just saw the replies. I don't have a source. But there were articles written at the time describing the renaissance amongst a  few Thai women who were the first professional fighters for a long time. And there were articles on the first foreign women to go to Thailand to fight in 'visible competitions'. Mary Hart, Vanessa Belgrade of Canada, Melissa Godfrey of Australia and others - this was when Muaythai's iron curtain was ripped down :). The first global amateur competition - the ifma's or its early incarnation took place without a womens division and the inclusion of women was again a huge turning point and occurred at the same time as the professional shift ... it was late 1990's/2000.

I don't think it was ever illegal or anything for women to fight it was just ignored or invisible, there was also a niche for 'girly' boxing (various degrees of nakedness)  which would come to peoples minds whenever female fighting was mentioned - it all built toward women not being taken seriously in the sport... that attitude rippled through the world but thankfully was countered by equal rights consciousness and a few savvy men who just didn't care - such as Master toddy and my coaches (who have Toddy lineage). It was a man also who headed up the female fighter renaissance  in Thailand amongst Thai women ... it is astonishing to see how far it has come along.

Rangsit stadium was the Mecca of female fighting in Thailand at the time. The sport of female Muaythai had been decimated as womens boxing became legal and drained the talent from our sport with the promise of paydays. It was a handful of women on the international circuit along with the timely about face of Thailand who began organising womens competition tolerating and promoting it- that kept female Muaythai alive during a treachorous time.

I have as much information as I could gather at the time covering this era! As many magazines as I could get hold of. It was in the very early days of the internet so not much from the time is on the net. I will scan and copy the articles here and hope others would add to it - I would love to know the perspective from other countries.

[Rosy]

as a p.s  :bunny:  :bunny:  :bunny: lol sorry love those bunnies. The talent drain to boxing deprived the female side of the sport with many 'passing the baton' matches ... the old guard just left! Many who switched to boxing didn't fare so well in it and were forgotten. We didn't get to see Anne Quinlan fight against a hungry up and coming fighter , nor Lisa Howarth, Lucia Rijker, Michele Aboro and so on . The first fight that struck me as a change in generations was Jemyma Betrian's win over an absolute legend Christine Toledo (who now works with Lionfight). 

[Finn Cartlidge]

Rosy, I had the opportunity to interview the Editor in Chief of Champ boxing magazine here in Thailand (she's been the editor for a very long time now but was a writer for them since the 70's) and when I asked her about Thailand's about-face in lifting the ban on female fighters she said she didn't remember there ever being one.  To be quite clear, she only wrote about Muay Thai in the big Bangkok stadia (Rajadamnern and Lumpinee) so her thumb was definitely not on the pulse of female fighters at all, but when she asked me where I'd heard about the out-lawing of female fighters I honesty had no source.

Do you have one that I can reference?

Sylvie I did a bit of research, and it seems like Rosy says, it was an unofficial ban. So I'm not sure how that played out at all.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I've seen the 1995 date as the year when female fighting was formally legalized, but only as a year in reference. What is interesting is that that was the very first year that the WMC met in a big conference, and WMC was (I believe) operating at the behest of Thailand's Sports Authority, the governing body which regulates Muay Thai. I wonder if the WMC made or proposed a change in female fighting, formalizing it's legality in some way.

Legality is a very interesting issue in Thailand of course. Currently for instance Child fighting (which is common) is both legal and illegal by different statutes. Even prostitution is technically illegal in Thailand. If we ever are to get at the bottom of the legality of female fighting in Thailand, which is to maybe say "women being able to formally fight at recognized stadia, where gambling is permitted" we would have to know something about the statutes before 1995, and if any of them were being used in a way to exclude women. And...to know if the WMC or the Sports Authority made some kind of change which altered that legality.

Women I imagine probably fought in the provinces for decades, with the same extra-legal standing as children who fight all over Thailand now, though probably only as a sideshow.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

This is an excerpt from Peter Vail's 1998 dissertation on Muay Thai Violence and Control: Social and Cultural Dimensions of Muay Thai Boxing, and how he characterized Thai female Muay Thai fighting based on his experiences in Buriram, Isaan in 1996 and 1997. Here "muay wat" are temple fights in the provinces. He seems pretty cavalier about the whole thing, and a pretty dismissive given that he is operating on very limited evidence. We do know that some Thai female fighters were fighting at high levels as Anne Quilan fought Nong Lek in 1990 in London, if I've got that right.

[Rosy]

yes 1990 .... first show I saw live . and Anne had already fought Apple Dong Kong Far in a 5x3min ftr fight which Apple won ... this was the first fight I saw on video ... I got a pretty warped idea of the standard at the time :). Both shows had TV coverage which was transmitted in Thailand ... not sure if all fights were broadcast.

At that time study material was a lot more scarce than now- Master Toddy made and distributed a video of 5 ... maybe 7... training camps in Thailand ... just footage of training really raw but gold to many people outside Thailand. One of the camps had women. 

I like that analogy with the childrens fights - it exists but isn't taken that seriously ... but you would have to take it down a few notches ... I stopped talking about the fact that I was a Thai boxer quite soon after I took up the sport ... I got asked in all seriousness if I did it topless... and in England that was the public perception of women boxing.

In all sport at that time (1990)- to make a huge generalisation!!- strong, dedicated and talented women were the exception not the rule, there had been a spate of strong female sprinters in the 1980's but the view now is that was a steroid fueled blip. The strength in depth in all female sports right now is incredible in comparison to what existed a generation or so ago.

[emma]

Rosy, did you ever see the TV documentary about Lisa Howarth, Anne Quinlan and Ella Yee? Master Toddy has told me about it so many times but I can't seem to find anything on it! Would love to see some footage if any survived. 

[Rosy]

Rosy, did you ever see the TV documentary about Lisa Howarth, Anne Quinlan and Ella Yee? Master Toddy has told me about it so many times but I can't seem to find anything on it! Would love to see some footage if any survived. 

 

I have something but it doesn't amount to a tv doc. Like a long training montage. There was tv coverage of a couple of Lisa's fights and I have those . The quality of the video is awful though and I need to get it converted. I wish Toddy had decent copies ! I tried to get some video converted recently at a studio and the clips I was interested in were unwatchable ...despite being decent quality on video...the guy working on them was particularly unhelpful so I'm back to square one with converting stuff.

[Rosy]

http://qr.livedoor.biz/archives/51793058.html

Kathy Long- in a class of her own in terms of her media profile in the Martial Arts scene , and still fighting!!! in her 50's now and about to return to MMA which she has had a dabble in before.

This fight with Kyoko was reported as being a big payday for Kathy in one of the martial arts mags- $20,000 ... 

Kathy inspired a young Angela Riviera to take up the sport - Angie trained under Mater Toddy ... met John Wayne Parr there and moved with him to Australia- they now have 3 children with daughter Jazmine clocking up a few fights of her own and Angie co-promoting after reaching heady heights in the sport herself.

[Rosy]

The incredible Kathy Long . QR throwback series brings us this 1989 kickboxing match between Kathy (USA) and Yoshikai Wakana (Japan). These women and others like them broke down the barriers preventing women fighting and in particular fighting Muay Thai - it took small increments ... the fighters here wear garlands . Kathy fought a week or so ago at the age of 51 winning her 2nd MMA fight. We stand on the shoulders of giants. 

http://qr.livedoor.biz/archives/51800391.html

[Rosy]

Sylvie if you ever get the opportunity to talk with Jitti, Jitti's gym (sorry I don't have a more accurate name) he would be a good lead on female muay thai in Thailand. The gym trained 1st class male fighters yet was also open for female foreigners from very early on - I trained there in '93- at that time Thai women fighters were invisible in the media, I scoured the papers and actually found one picture of Lisa Howarth - 1st English world champ- but not a sign of a Thai woman-