Jump to content

The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai


Recommended Posts

32 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Maybe we are getting somewhere as to the original question of the OP. Does a Martial Craft become a Martial Art simply when it passes into the hands of the Rich?

And even more problematically, is this the case with all crafts and arts?

You smashed it with that one. Craft (as in trade) in my opinion is utilitarian in nature, neither beautiful nor ugly, but extremely useful. Once a craft becomes within the purview of the rich it changes it's essence. I love that term, martial craft. I've never been a  big fan of the term martial art and have only really used it for convenience.

  • Like 2
  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

Once a craft becomes within the purview of the rich it changes it's essence. I love that term, martial craft.

Speaking to everyone reading this thread, there is a very good book on Craft, and what is lost in a society when we lose craft:

craft.jpg

The Craftsman <<<

Whether we are talking about craft beer, or craft woodworking, there is something very vital here. Muay Thai is craft fighting.

 

  • Like 1
  • Gamma 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

"Rich kids dont fight" -Bernard Hopkins

 

On the art/craft thing, I often suspected the term martial arts came from someone just rendering the Latin term ars martialis into English, which should probably be translated more like warcraft. 

  • Like 3
  • Gamma 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Bad Seed said:

I often suspected the term martial arts came from someone just rendering the Latin term ars martialis into English, which should probably be translated more like warcraft. 

Could be, but some "tradtional" martial artists were literal artists, such as in the Sword and The Brush philosophy, and the warrior/poet traditions, where the refinement of the warrior included the refinement of the man, not to mention the rise of the Budo philosophy (self-cultivation) in early 20th century Japan. If it was a mis-translation it fit with many Japanese ideas about what we call martial arts.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

There's a reason that boxing has been dominated by Black and Latin Americans in the states, and it's the same reason it was dominated by Jewish Americans in the 30s-40s. Same goes for the best Japanese fighters in karate/judo come from run down parts of Tokyo and Osaka. The rougher a neighbourhood you grow up in, the more likely getting into fights doesn't scare you, especially if you were the sort of kid who looked for trouble or hung with a bad crowd. 

The best example of this I can think of is Dagestan, which is probably the most dominant area in sports. This tiny part of Russia of 3 million people have not only dominated wrestling and sambo at the olympics and other international competition while representing Russia, but plenty of countries have Dagestani's who medalled for them. Which is insane, they are still a minority in terms of participants in wrestling, but have probably the biggest amount of medals proportionate to their size. I don't think it's a coincidence that they are also in one of the roughest, parts of the world, where every day has the threat of terrorism and/or war. 

While there are probably some, I can't really think off the top of my head any Muay Thai, MMA or boxing fighters in the UK who have come from an affluent area like Central or West London, Brighton etc. There are some, I'm sure, but I can name many from East and South London, Manchester, Leeds, etc.  You generally don't take up getting hit in the face as your career unless it seems like a great opportunity for you, and if you come from a wealthier background, or have more job opportunity surrounding you, you're going to go for that.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AndyMaBobs said:

There's a reason that boxing has been dominated by Black and Latin Americans in the states, and it's the same reason it was dominated by Jewish Americans in the 30s-40s. Same goes for the best Japanese fighters in karate/judo come from run down parts of Tokyo and Osaka. The rougher a neighbourhood you grow up in, the more likely getting into fights doesn't scare you, especially if you were the sort of kid who looked for trouble or hung with a bad crowd. 

Yes, that's the usual theory. But Karate developed among the rich in Japan. And apparently BJJ developed among the rich in Brazil, at least in many of its formative stages. The Gracie schools, by Machado's telling, where all in the wealthy neighborhoods. It seems that the rich provide pathways for a martial art or fighting art's development. In Thailand it is similar. Yes, great fighters throughout the decades came from the countryside, but there is also a royal "Bangkok" tradition of the keeper of the flame, often in conjunction with military or policing developments.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Yes, that's the usual theory. But Karate developed among the rich in Japan. And apparently BJJ developed among the rich in Brazil, at least in many of its formative stages. The Gracie schools, by Machado's telling, where all in the wealthy neighborhoods. It seems that the rich provide pathways for a martial art or fighting art's development. In Thailand it is similar. Yes, great fighters throughout the decades came from the countryside, but there is also a royal "Bangkok" tradition of the keeper of the flame, often in conjunction with military or policing developments.

Yeah that's all fairly standard no matter where you go. Same as with boxing with promoters, the rich people come and watch the poor people fight. That financial backing necessary to promote and give a martial art exposure is quite hard to do for working class people. Muay Thai was brought to the UK by well off guys who didn't really know Muay Thai. As Anderson Silva would say 'is normal' 😄

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

This very interesting description of how the legalization of Caipoeira in Brazil was linked the teaching of the art to the more affluent, turning into a "Martial Art" in the Asian model. This is roughly the same 1920s-1930s time frame when Okinawa Karate was first taught to affluent university students in Japan. Even at the time, there was a strong cultural identity issue at play, notably among Brazilian intellectuals:

1316195251_caipoeiraalsorichpeople.thumb.png.5110fd306e79bb08e40755c2ad1fb435.png

1233327377_caipoeiraalsorichpeople2.thumb.png.102a0b1bbc66fe82daa7de85aa92c7e7.png


Mexican capoeira is not diasporic! – On glocalization, migration and the North-South divideAuthor: David Sebastian Contreras Islas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • Hi Warren  It was very quiet when I was there. A few local guys and 2-4 foreigners but that can change and I'm sure this gym has got more popular. You can schedule privates for whenever you want. The attention to detail here is unbelievable and I highly recommend you train at this gym. In my experience, everyone was really good training partners and I learnt loads everyday.  
    • To all the MuayThai enthusiasts who have travelled to Thailand and trained in Muay thai- I would urge you to pls fill this form to share your interests and journey insights. This will help us explore possible ways to improve muay thai gym/training program search experience for the community https://forms.gle/39pBz4wHQ2CXPWNS8 Feel free to DM me if there is any feedback or query.
    • You can look through my various articles which sometimes focuses on this: https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-forum/forum/23-kevins-corner-muay-thai-philosophy-ethics/ especially the article on Muay Thai as a Rite. The general thought is that Thailand's traditional Muay Thai offers the world an important understanding of self-control in an era which is increasingly oriented towards abject violence for entertainment. There are also arguments which connect Muay Thai to environmental concerns.
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • Hi, this might be out of the normal topic, but I thought you all might be interested in a book-- Children of the Neon Bamboo-- that has a really cool Martial Arts instructor character who set up an early Muy Thai gym south of Miami in the 1980s. He's a really cool character who drives the plot, and there historically accurate allusions to 1980s martial arts culture. However, the main thrust is more about nostalgia and friendships.    Can we do links? Childrenoftheneonbamboo.com Children of the Neon Bamboo: B. Glynn Kimmey: 9798988054115: Amazon.com: Movies & TV      
    • Davince Resolve is a great place to start. 
    • I see that this thread is from three years ago, and I hope your journey with Muay Thai and mental health has evolved positively during this time. It's fascinating to revisit these discussions and reflect on how our understanding of such topics can grow. The connection between training and mental health is intricate, as you've pointed out. Finding the right balance between pushing yourself and self-care is a continuous learning process. If you've been exploring various avenues for managing mood-related issues over these years, you might want to revisit the topic of mental health resources. One such resource is The UK Medical Cannabis Card, which can provide insights into alternative treatments.
    • Phetjeeja fought Anissa Meksen for a ONE FC interim atomweight kickboxing title 12/22/2023. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu92S6-V5y0&ab_channel=ONEChampionship Fight starts at 45:08 Phetjeeja won on points. Not being able to clinch really handicapped her. I was afraid the ref was going to start deducting points for clinch fouls.   
    • Earlier this year I wrote a couple of sociology essays that dealt directly with Muay Thai, drawing on Sylvie's journalism and discussions on the podcast to do so. I thought I'd put them up here in case they were of any interest, rather than locking them away with the intention to perfectly rewrite them 'some day'. There's not really many novel insights of my own, rather it's more just pulling together existing literature with some of the von Duuglus-Ittu's work, which I think is criminally underutilised in academic discussions of MT. The first, 'Some meanings of muay' was written for an ideology/sosciology of knowledge paper, and is an overly long, somewhat grindy attempt to give a combined historical, institutional, and situated study of major cultural meanings of Muay Thai as a form of strength. The second paper, 'the fighter's heart' was written for a qualitative analysis course, and makes extensive use of interviews and podcast discussions to talk about some ways in which the gendered/sexed body is described/deployed within Muay Thai. There's plenty of issues with both, and they're not what I'd write today, and I'm learning to realise that's fine! some meanings of muay.docx The fighter's heart.docx
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.3k
    • Total Posts
      11k
×
×
  • Create New...