There Are No More Great Muay Thai Teachers in the World - Sifu McInnes

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I just wanted to relate to everyone part of a conversation we were having with Sifu McInnes in Pattaya when filming with him for the Library. I think the conversation will make the session cut, but I'm not sure. We were talking about the loss of the Golden Age techniques, something Sylvie and I talk about frequently. The part that she and I emphasize is that the great fighters of the Golden Age are no longer in the fight game. They find themselves outside of gyms, many of them no longer involved in Muay Thai at all. Not only are the techniques being lost, but the men of that age, their personalities, their knowledge depth, also are being lost. Sifu though had a different point. He has the perspective of someone who was super active in Lumpinee fighting in the Golden Age. He was close to Arjan Yodthong of Sityodtong, in fact Sifu says that he built his house next to the gym at the time, so close was their working relationship. He said for a decade he traveled the road to Lumpinee with Arjan Yodthong, week after week. His point though was not that the great fighters are no longer in Muay Thai, but that its the great coaches who made those fighters are no longer in Muay Thai. Of course Arjan Yodthong who made an incredible number of champions sadly passed away, but Sifu said that many others have died as well. In fact he challenged us to name a single legendary Muay Thai teacher who is still strongly connected to producing stadium fighters. We thought for a minute and could only come up with Arjan Surat of Dejrat Gym. But Sifu objected. Arjan Surat was a young man then, when the Golden Age was happening. That is not the generation he was referring to. It's the generation that was before. That was the generation which actually produced the legends of the Golden Age. And, as we both agreed, it is irrevocably lost because the entire system that made those great instructors, the Yodthongs of Thailand, is gone, the entire feeding system to Bangkok is heavily altered, radically changed. The quality of instruction, even at top Thai gyms, is no longer what it was in those days, Sifu claimed. He said that he would sit in Lumpinee with legendary coaches and they would just make money hand over fist following their bets. They could see which fighter was going, and in what round. He said that kind of knowledge, all the infinite perceptions are gone. It's a great session, so much in it technically, but that conversation will stay with me. With the Library we are trying to save the techniques, the Muay, and something of the men who fought so brilliantly in those decades, but Sifu reminded me that the ecological loss is even more than that. It's of the generation before them, the men of Muay Thai who were shapers of that greatness we all look back on.

Some stills from the session (you can follow my photography on Instagram)

 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

It's interesting to me that when you talk to fighters of that era, they blame gambling. Or Karuhat blaming the lack of charisma in modern fighters, no personality to be superstars. He's a fighter, blaming fighters. And Sifu, he's a teacher blaming teachers - or a loss of teachers, really. It's interesting to me that these men are putting the blame in their own wheelhouses. When we suggested to General Tunwakom and Sirimongkol (both in their 70s) that the Golden Era displayed some very old techniques - IN THE RING - both of them said that the trainers of those fighters were too old to have really done much teaching. But, I can attest that sitting in a chair and waving a stick at a distance, you can learn a lot of technique. Sifu made a brilliant point when he suggested that the loss of Arjan - of the men with the real technical knowledge and skillset to disseminate it - had resulted in padmen replacing them as teachers. Padmen were labor; they still are, but now they're also the krus.

[Coach James Poidog]

10 hours ago, Sylvie_vonD said:

It's interesting to me that when you talk to fighters of that era, they blame gambling. Or Karuhat blaming the lack of charisma in modern fighters, no personality to be superstars. He's a fighter, blaming fighters. And Sifu, he's a teacher blaming teachers - or a loss of teachers, really. It's interesting to me that these men are putting the blame in their own wheelhouses. When we suggested to General Tunwakom and Sirimongkol (both in their 70s) that the Golden Era displayed some very old techniques - IN THE RING - both of them said that the trainers of those fighters were too old to have really done much teaching. But, I can attest that sitting in a chair and waving a stick at a distance, you can learn a lot of technique. Sifu made a brilliant point when he suggested that the loss of Arjan - of the men with the real technical knowledge and skillset to disseminate it - had resulted in padmen replacing them as teachers. Padmen were labor; they still are, but now they're also the krus.

I think how and who we blame shows our focus. Id probably focus on the coaches and teachers too since thats my focus. Whats interesting to me is who Karuhat blames considering he is now a teacher, you can see his focus. Hes still a fighter at heart. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

11 hours ago, James Poidog said:

I think how and who we blame shows our focus. Id probably focus on the coaches and teachers too since thats my focus. Whats interesting to me is who Karuhat blames considering he is now a teacher, you can see his focus. Hes still a fighter at heart. 

You are completely right! His teaching style is almost entirely through sparring, and correction in sparring. He described to Sylvie how when he was in the gym as a fighter he would always be working on moves or deceptions that would catch his sparring partners off guard. He thought to himself that if he could fool someone who knew him well he could easily fool or mistime an opponent. It led to him developing one of the most unique fighting styles of the Golden Age. When he is teaching sylvie in all those sessions he is still doing this. We see him regularly invent throws, for instance, that we've never seen before, ever. And as he's showing the throw if you pay attention you'll see that he's working on it, inventing it right there before your eyes, just as he would do as a fighter.

Now, this is the really interesting thing as to the topic. We have to admit that the entire ecosystem that produced these coaches, and all these fighters, it's gone, like the Amazon rain forest might one day be gone, but new ways of teaching and creating techniques are growing now. Fighters are communication their experiences. Rambaa just the other day was literally teaching Sylvie Karuhat's switching style, impersonating Karuhat, asking her if she knew who Karuhat was (???!), something he had stolen and made his own from videos. And...he's teaching this stuff to the Thai boys who are dreaming of becoming stadium fighters! So there is creativity! 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Yeah, I don't think Karuhat considers himself a teacher, even though he definitely takes pride in his students. I think his approach is very much like being a senior in a gym, who can raise the younger fighters up but doesn't necessarily assume a formal role. This might be a part of how modern gyms are different from back in his day though. You'd have a single superstar come out of a gym, like Karuhat, Sakmongkol, Santiennoi, etc. These guys weren't from gyms with tons of champions. But then there were a few gyms with lots of them, like Sityodthong, Nongkeepahuyut, Hapalang, just to name a few. Nowdays you have gyms that buy up ALL the stars and they all train together, pulling them out of their smaller gyms where they could be raising others up. But they do carve each other, in these "show horse stables," I guess.

[Kaitlin Rose Young]

Kaensak's trainer (Kru Kimyu) still comes through Dejrat on occasion. It's been a while since I've seen him though. He can barely walk but will prop himself on the ropes and hold pads for fighters. He has to have 20 years on Ajarn Surat. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

6 hours ago, Kaitlin Rose Young said:

Kaensak's trainer (Kru Kimyu) still comes through Dejrat on occasion. It's been a while since I've seen him though. He can barely walk but will prop himself on the ropes and hold pads for fighters. He has to have 20 years on Ajarn Surat. 

Very good catch! He, amazingly, also was Pi Nu's trainer (Sylvie's Kru in Pattaya). He used to travel in a circuit back in the day and would come and train the Petchrungruang boys regularly when he would be in Pattaya. Sounds as if he was a kind of traveling Arjan. He was training one of the greatest fighters of the generation (Kaensak in Bangkok), and also some boys in a small, family gym in Pattya? And how many others? As a side note, so out of sheer coincidence Sylvie's ended up training under two of his students, both Kaesak who was her trainer in NJ before she moved to Thailand, and Kru Nu now, which is such an unexpected, accidental lineage. What is interesting, if I have the story right, when Kru Nu's son Bank was starting to make waves last year at Lumpinee Kru Kimyu offered to come and help train him for an upcoming fight, if he could make it, but it never came to fruition because of his health/age. So we are really on the cusp of Kru Kimyu ending his influence on fighters. Sylvie says though that he's come over to Bank's corner in two recent important Lumpinee fights, so he's hanging out at Lumpinee. (Edit to add: It's also kind of beautiful and amazing to see this subterrainian connection between two gyms, Dejrat Gym and Petchrungruang Gym, two gyms you would never from the outside connect. There is a thin teaching line in Kru Kimyu, and also now in Sylvie there is a student line as well, as Arjan Surat has been a heavy influence on her. It's in the fabric of relationships.)

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Here is Kru Kimyu in Bank's corner. He also made itnover there at the same time Dieselnoi was screaming in Bank's corner about 2 months ago - 2 incredible men with VERY different energies in the same tiny area.

[Chaang hlek]

Is Somat Hong Sakoun still around at all? I'm sure he doesn't train anyone anymore but the article I saw about jocky gym said he was one of the biggest technicians of the 60's. I don't know how old he is but would probably be really interesting to talk to.