Nightshade

Hey just wanted to say some stuff about the thread. First of all, it took me about a year and a half to two years plus several discussions with you Kevin before I even began to understand what Muay Thai (was) about. But I had a desire to actually understand it. I wanted to know how the fighters were moving and why the fighters were doing exactly what they were doing. The average Western fight fan watches fighting to see someone get hurt or knocked out. They have zero desire to even attempt to understand how Muay Thai was done and scored. Second of all, I see the general trend of what’s happening with Muay Thai now as a direct response to Muay Thai techniques being adapted to MMA and specifically in the UFC. You had guys like Joe Rogan talking about how brutal the sport is (which it can be) but I think Rogan+the UFC are more or less directly responsible for Entertainment Muay Thai. It’s sad to see it go, I have zero hope that it will survive. The value system of Western Countries just directly contrasts with how the Thais viewed fighting in Muay Thai. In the end, I think skills of all combat sports is on a downward trajectory. More and more, I think coaches look for superior athletes and don’t want to invest the time in t takes to grow a truly high skilled individual. Thus all the old knowledge and wisdom gets lost as coaches attempt to simply make bulls that can succeed on pure aggression and physicality. To be fair there will be some exceptions but by and large I see us worldwide going into a sort of “dark age” of combat sports across the board. The only exception to this seems to be sport BJJ but that will always be hindered by the fact that it’s objectively boring as a spectator sport. And even that is straying far and away from its roots of actual combat effectiveness as you’ll notice in MMA high level BJJ is becoming more and more rare because the sport version isn’t applicable anymore to MMA.

I’m not more experienced or anything but some of his lead hand work scares me. For him. He stands in range leaving his punches out for way too long. That’s a good way to get knocked out brutally. if he fixes that I’d say he’s fine to fight. I think people have a tendency to make fights a bigger deal than they are, I know I used to. But at the end of the day you’re never going to be perfect and you either roll the dice step in the ring or you don’t. Besides there’s a chance you won’t like it, and you don’t want to do it again. In that case what a colossal waste of effort, when you could’ve figured that out sooner and moved to more casual training freeing up time and resources to invest yourself into something else that might be your true passion. Some people don’t like hitting other people or getting hit hard, I’ve seen it. They think they want to fight, but they don’t.

Samson Issan (Dutch boy) vs Benjie Canete. Samson vs Canete also Also Samson vs Thembinkosi Ntyinkala very cool. Extremely demonstrative for anyone looking to study/incorporate Samson’s “max guard”. I’m taking note that an essential part of this guard is forwards movement and bullying his opponent around. It looks a little similar to the much crappier version that a lot of bad fighters use where their gloves are more at their temples. Samson’s head posture and the fact that his hands are at the top (or crown) is only 1/2 of the effectiveness. The other half is how he actually pushes into the opponents fist which may seem counterintuitive. However, not only is he stifling the last few inches of the punch which is where “pop” comes from, he also ends up engaging his muscles around this guard (that being mostly his neck and lats) which takes energy that would be transferred to the head and redirects it to his torso. Kind of like a lightning rod for kinetic energy from a punch. He also pushes his forearms outwards at times which again is capturing kinetic energy and rerouting it to his much heavier torso through his much bigger lat muscles with much more inertia to overcome to make him move. Absolutely brilliant, cannot believe we don’t see this guard more often.

Hey I just wanted to see if we could make a thread linking some of the WBC fights that guys in the library have had? Samart vs Jeff Fenech. Super Bantemweight title fight 1987. Story from what I’m hearing is Samart was very sick before this fight. Still we can see just how slick Samart is in the beginning until he gassed. This one is of Samart vs Rafael Gandarilla. Masterclass in open stance jabbing. Samart absolutely destroys this guy. So cool how damn GOOD Thais are at moving backwards. Even in western boxing. I love this match, the strange venue (it’s like a fancy dinner?) the video quality is amazing too. I’m really hoping especially to find some Samson fights. It’s cool seeing how these guys boxed.

Rambaa is one of my favorite sessions. I’ve absolutely stolen a ton from these videos. The throws he shows are extremely effective. The stinging leg kicks are awesome. Pistol whip elbow is brilliant. Rambaa I think is by and large a fighter defined by explosiveness, he’s like a bomb that’s just waiting to go off at the right time. He just didn’t have it in him to move slowly. He’s definitely the guy to watch if you lean heavily on your speed advantage to win fights. but then it’s totally contrasting with his mega low effort blocking style. I think he saw blocking with almost disappointment like alright you initiated so now I gotta do this to make sure I don’t get tagged lol that’s what i see. It’s like #%^ your punches, they’re lame. He’s also I think willing to walk into the fire because he’s confident he gets to your chin faster and better than you can get to mine so he’ll throw at basically the exact same time you do except better. idk that’s kinda what I see in Rambaa. But you can tell the man just LOVES fighting in general. He’s definitely not concerned with nor bogged down by “how things should be” he’s looking for what works and why and then how can those ideas work into other aspects of fighting. I’m sure he was fairly frustrated as a young person by the hierarchal constraints of Thai society. He’s a born rebel.

I’m a similarly nice person so I get it. In sparring I don’t like to hit people hard especially to the head. however I just did a Kyukoshin tournament. It was my first foray into striking combat sports. I had no problems hurting someone. I think you might be a little different the context of an actual match. I was shocked at just how ok I was with it.

Thanks for reading my post…

Thanks a lot. The tournament is tomorrow I’ll make sure to report what went down! Ended up winning it!

Thanks a lot. The tournament is tomorrow I’ll make sure to report what went down!

Hey. So I’m gonna do a Kyukoshin tournament. If anyone doesn’t know the ruleset it’s no punches, elbows to the head and no clinching. Points are only awarded for dropping someone or causing a visible reaction so Ning is going to be key. I’m wondering if anyone here has done one? It’s my first actual full contact fight, all the kicks knees (head and body) and punches and elbows to the body are full force. They have a very unique style of throwing punches and there’s a lot of crowding so my plan is to take angles as much as possible and keep tagging the legs and body with kicks and throw a few headkicks if they’re there. I’m southpaw too. I want to move into Muay Thai but this seemed like a good a time as any to get some experience trading full power strikes with slightly less risk of getting slept. Plus my coach encouraged me to do it so he thinks I’m ready for it. Thanks for reading!

I actually think the harder the hitter, the closer to your body you want the pads. For example holding for body round kicks I have the tips of the pads touching on top and some space at the bottoms so it makes a ^ sort of shape. Tighter angle than that but you get the idea. Anyways, I’m popping as the kick lands. But I don’t really reach out with my arms very much, maybe an inch or two. Since there is a lot of surface area of pads touching my body I have a lot of support from my core and legs. Which I use both to brace. And then of course if I’m doing with a REALLY hard kicker I just let the kick move me back and take a step. I feel very little shock in my head and neck. Some people at first may not be comfortable hitting me with the pads this close but I insist on it and they get the picture pretty quick. I value my elbows and my head. This has been my solution. I have no idea if it’s “good” but I assure you it’s a lot more comfortable for me. Now holding for head kicks is a different beast. I dislike holding for head kicks because everything I just told you to absorb impact better flies out the window. Fortunately I’ve found a lot of people simply can’t or don’t generate the same amount of force on them. But yeah your arms are in a much worse position, and the penalty for messing up holding for a head kick is severe.

Thanks for responding Kevin and trailrun! I was kinda thinking incorporating more knees would be a really good idea to really make it a Muay Thai clinch situation. I actually do pretty good giving up weight in BJJ, and it’s pretty much the same idea that Kevin talked about relaxation and selective tension. It’s the only way you can preserve enough energy to do what you gotta do. I’m definitely going to take the advice and go easy on the sweeps. It’s not worth the energy right now. Turns, knees and proper inside positioning.

Maybe I didn’t communicate this properly. I’m only doing 10 minutes of clinch and I’m totally exhausted. I’m trying to use the principles I’ve seen in the library and on Sylvie’s clinch for beginners seminar on YouTube. The guy I’m clinching with out weighs me by about 75-80 lbs, is it just that weight difference that’s causing such rapid fatigue? I can successfully move him with the collar tie elbow jamming into his chest. I do pretty good winning dominant clinches. But my turns feel very strength based. Same for my sweeps, they aren’t beautiful timing based sweeps, they’re pulling with muscle sweeps. Is there a better way of going about this? I’ve heard drilling clinch is pointless so we’re pretty much going full on and I feel like I am getting better at it but in a fight I know I couldn’t keep this up, I’d get wrecked.

Right now I have the opportunity to work clinch everyday albeit with somebody considerably bigger. I have some experience doing standup grappling but always in the context of takedowns for submission grappling. Does anyone have any advice or insight regarding the difference in these two paradigms? I want to improve my ability to clinch and strike while maintaining a safe and beautiful ruup

To add to this, if we consider the intention and rule set of kickboxing, I’m failing to understand the point of the sport. If you’re only looking to see a last man standing type scenario…why put arbitrary restrictions on throws and ground game? It’s no secret that historically the striker vs wrester scenario ends with the wrestler getting the striker down and beating them up on the floor. So in a sense I understand MMA’s premise and intention but kickboxing seems like MMA with extra steps. Why bother? As for Muay Thai in the west I think much more effort is needed in preserving the intention and spirit of the sport otherwise we end up with yet another pointless incarnation of MMA. But hey what the heck do I know?

I don’t dispute that that’s a factor regarding skills gaps in farang vs Thai matchups. But that’s not my point. My point is that Farang do not understand the meta regarding traditional Muay Thai. Thus they tend not to win those fights. Basically all Farang for the vast majority understand a simple equation that win=damage>damage. It’s an extremely oversimplified paradigm that really completely fails to capture what Muay Thai traditionally has been. Westerners basically treat Muay Thai like it’s MMA with limits on throws and no ground work. Thus their version of “Muay Thai” truly is kickboxing with a little bit of clinch and some elbows.

I don’t dislike Gabriel Varga, he seems like a fine dude but here Varga claims to have beaten Mauy Thai fighters in their own sport because, well, he knows the rules are a little different but some elbows and a little bit of clinch wouldn’t, in his opinion, have changed the outcome much. Start reading through the comments and you’ll see a common thread. That being a total lack of any focus besides damage and KO. If anyone else is curious about the Mauy Thai in West, you are competing in an entirely different sport. You’re kickboxing with elbows and the tiniest sprinkle of clinch. So for anyone looking to do entertainment Mauy Thai that’s what your opponents will be trying to do at all costs disregarding jungwat (I hope I spelled that correctly trying to sound cool and say balance) , Ruup, basically anything that doesn’t directly involve a strike that does damage. the more damage the higher the score. So you might as well swing away because nothing else matters. It’s low key kinda gross. let me know if I’m off here but according to what I’m learning about Mauy Thai this video kind of hit me wrong. : /

I think as a whole if you took someone from Muay Thai and had them box without training boxing as a sport the combinations boxers throw might give them some trouble if the Thai is trying to stay in the pocket and exchange. However I think Thais fair one thousand times better in boxing than boxers do in Muay Thai. I’d image most boxers wouldn’t have the tools to close the distance and would be getting teeped to death. As far as head movement goes you’re absolutely right. Idk what else to say. They’re different sports, both are masters of head movement for their respective sport. If you want to see a sport with bad head movement, that’s classically been kickboxing. Maybe people mix up the two?

I have a couple of thoughts on this kind topic. Let me preface this by saying I'm very new at trying to look at Mauy Thai from the traditional Thai perspective. Here in the United States we have absolutely no idea what Mauy Thai actually is. So after watching the podcast I have to say that I too am feeling sadness regarding this matter. As far as the difference Kevin feels about MMA in Lumpinee here's my take. I believe that the difference in MMA vs Mauy Thai is the difference in the defining myths of reality and social order in the West vs Thailand. Sorry I feel like I'm trying to sound smarter than I am but this is the best way I can describe it. The West believes primarily in GOOD vs EVIL specifically Satan vs God. As a whole the west has not evolved past this paradigm but rather it has taken a new form as we have become dominantly secular as a people. The GOOD vs EVIL paradigm did not leave it just changed into US vs THEM. How does this relate to MMA? Basically MMA is GOOD destroying EVIL. The best illustration of this is when an MMA fighter keeps striking an obviously knocked out opponent. If you don't follow MMA look up Bisping vs Henderson and that's what I'm talking about. It is not about control, dominance, artistry or anything like that. Not really. Not on a deeper level. Westerners are not ok with ambiguity. The Devine doesn't exist. Numbers exist, and facts exist. A Western MMA fan's thoughts regarding a fight/fighter might be: So I land more hard punches on you? Victory. So I tag you a few times and shut you out? Eh, victory I guess but on a technicality and if you fail me again sorry i'm gonna have to bail because I need a savior who can destroy the EVIL/OTHERS who keep my life from being the perfection that I truly deserve because I'm me. Obviously the individual doesn't even realize this is the underlying syntax of why they like which specific fighters. Simply put when they watch they view themselves as the fighter on a quest to eradicate OTHER/EVIL for US/GOD In my opinion we're very sick spiritually here in the west and I think people do feel it but they don't know what they don't know. The only reason I've come to question any of this was repeated personal injury training MMA. But now I feel robbed because this was perhaps the healthiest expression of fist fighting that I've come across. I feel kinda like someone might feel being the second guy to discover a hidden treasure. Sure people get hurt doing Mauy Thai, I get that it's brutal, but it has to be that way. That's what I want to bring back to the US even if just a small part of that idea that fights can be about space and dominance not necessarily damage and aggression. You don't necessarily have to smash someone's brains in to win. You might have to, but that's only because the person you're fighting made that the case. I think it would be a lot better for people's brains and bodies, yet still an effective way to handle yourself with the confidence that you can actually fight.

Ya great guard, amazing against pretty much anything on same side besides the sneakiest of uppercuts and elbows. It’s also a nice option to jump back into if I’m hand fighting and feel like I just lost control of the hand fight and no longer can tell what exactly is coming at me. Also I’m pretty sure it’s possible to get a crisp jab, fist following in a straight line off this block if you drop the elbow super close to your ribs then launch. but yeah been using this thing pretty much since I started doing ‘Merican Mauy Thai lol maybe my ideas don’t work so well in Thailand?

Hey I just want to thank you Sylvie for doing what you do regarding the Mauy Thai library and this website, plus your courage and bravery to go out and actually pursue the lifestyle your living. I've learned so much and have actually gotten into watching the sport of Mauy Thai which I've grown to really enjoy. I think it's important to go to the source to learn it, especially because it's actually the grappling or the Mauy Khao style that pumps me up as far as skill mastery is concerned. The two things that impress me most in martial arts is skilled evasiveness when fighters slip impossibly fast strikes and high amplitude sweeps. Basically at a point where I'm realizing that I'm never really going to get any good at clinch fighting unless I head over to Thailand and have the time to do it everyday. I do kickboxing right now in the US but they do not know how to clinchfight. I don't know I guess I felt like communicating all that with all of you but here are my questions on the matter. First of all where do you see Mauy Thai going in the US? I feel like many MMA fans actually want to watch Mauy Thai and don't even realize it. I'm talking about people who boo whenever there's an extended grappling exchange. I think someday when I'm much more experienced and competent I'd like to open an actual Mauy Thai gym in the US (and not kickboxing like 99% of them truly are) and maybe grow awareness of the sport over here. Second of all how are things looking in Thailand? How do you see things playing out in the next couple years? Has covid changed the landscape is it now much less kind to foreigners? I know Thai's are smaller people in general I'm assuming I'll have no trouble getting fights being around 150lbs? Also income wise, any tips trying to stay afloat financially while training in Thailand? I've got some decent savings but I'd want to at least try to generate income out there. Is fighting a legitimate way for a guy with 0 fights? And last if you could recommend a resource for someone looking to get that Mauy Khao experience? It's just so cool lol I'm really kind of looking to change up my lifestyle. I've always used martial arts to blow off steam and keep me grounded plus I loved and love the sense of camaraderie that comes with doing something as difficult as training. I'm very happy that I found this website and the Patreon so I could see someone making it happen. At some point I know I've got to just make the call and do it but I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can so I can start to mentally picture how it's going to go. Anyways thank you very much for all your hard work and dedication as well as taking the time to read this!