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Thank you so much @Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu this is incredibly helpful. As this is in a lethwei community (but lethwei fights not allowed now for reasons I don't understand fully) it seems like the lethwei style of blocking kicks with arms and focus on headkicks and punches to the head would help me. In my gym there is limited English knowledge and my Burmese is very limited as well. I have a friend who is part of the organisation of these fights I'll clarify with him. In my pads training now, I am barely asked to do body kicks (rather lethwei style crosskick) and it's almost 100% headkicks and they want me to do jumping knees (which I struggle with). They want me to switch stance a lot, attacking from both stances and move around more. So my thinking is, it will be more traditional kickboxing rules (based on what I understand from your post) rather than Muay Thai. On the advice on forward moving aggression: this helps a lot as well. I actually have no clue about the judges ability to score properly (unfortunately and without being disrespectful) which makes me a bit uncomfortable to use technique and I feel KO might be my best option. Sincere thanks for taking the time to explain!

Hiya! Looks like I might have an upcoming fight soon. Rules are being negotiated, I have asked for elbows and MMA gloves but seems like it will be kickboxing rules with regular gloves. 3x3min rounds. Not sure how the scoring will be or if it's KO or draw so I'll go for KO. I don't really know how to fight kickboxing. I mean, we do it in sparring all the time but I see it as muay thai without elbows. I understand kickboxing is faster, limited clinching time, no elbows. More moving around. Any advice how to use a muay thai background and fight under kickboxing rules? I love clinch and elbows . My opponent is currently some kg heavier than me but a bit shorter, not sure if she'll lose weight. She has a lethwei and MMA background.

One thing I wanted to mention is also us women understanding how much power we have and how hard we punch. I might be mistaken, but I feel sometimes women tend to go pretty hard because guys we spar with never want to admit when hurts. So we don't learn to assess our own strength in strikes.

Thank you Kevin for voicing this and as a man understanding this. I really appreciate that. I find personally it's really hard to speak about these things. When as a woman you get discriminated against because you are a woman (and this happens a lot), those situations are easy to fix: everyone gets to spar, everyone gets clinching etc. The hard part is the benefits you might receive because you are _not_ like other women. So there are situations where you receive a lot of attention because you are not what they expect a woman to be (oftentimes playing that card of being very strong physically but just sweet enough so that they accept your male coded attributes), but you know for sure that this attention is at the same time cutting into attention that could have been given to other girls, because of the scarcity you speak of. You "play the game" to get ahead. And you not proud of it, but as a woman you know it's a zero sum game. So the ideal situation is that your gender is viewed neutrally. But if that happens, lots of benefits are lost.

To be honest, from my perspective, it feels like "ok we going to allow women fighting so we just gonna allow everything". Pyrrhic victory.

Thank you so much! Actually Thai Embassy started issuing tourist visa again she got one but in Doha Qatar Airways refused her to board because she wasn't vaccinated (she had CoE but airline overruled embassy decision). She managed to get to a third country to start over the whole process hoping to make it to Thailand. I will forward her the details hoping she can make it. Unfortunately there were some wrongful posts done on Myanmar celebrity media claiming she had gone to the jungle to join the rebel forces (just like Myanmar One MMA fighter Antoniyar did) which put her in a difficult safety situation and I'm relieved she could leave the country. I didn't see the fight but her female fighter friend told me Sawsing would have won if it was scored via points. ("Myanmar fighters are strong but have no ring IQ" is something I heard Myanmar fighters admit a couple of times...).

Aah of course, thanks for clarification.

So would the way the fighters fought (adhering to traditional rules) change the way it was scored/ruled even though the fight took place outsideThailand? And just to clarify on the knees in the clinch. If a knee lands on the closed side of the body (meaning if the knee makes it through the block) it scores higher? Or did you mean, if the fighter goes for the side that's open (ie _not_ kneeing a block) it scores higher?

I believe my gym was a typical example of that. Took my a while to figure out and I still do not really understand the two business models or everything that happened while I was there. Which is part of the charm I guess :).

I find this topic very fascinating as this is something, being on my 14th year abroad, I constantly reflect on. Where do my culture and the local culture intersect? And are there values that can be seen as culturally objective? I think, in general, Westerners tend to see their own culture as "objective". Either they are not aware they have a specific culture (subconscious), or they are aware but choose to see their own culture as the "right/more superior" one. As if typical Western values would be neutral somehow, often based on the premise that we are more effective from a capitalist standpoint. The typical individualistic perspective you mention. I remember when a friend and fighter complained about their gym that sometimes the trainers would only speak Thai "although most customers were foreigners". This from a person who had chosen to leave their Western country to come to Thailand and build an alternative life. I also remember this British guy who took over a gym I was training at briefly and wanted to turn the gym into a fight gym for both Thais and foreigners. I remember when my teacher called me and asked for help to translate something. It turns out this new owner simply wanted to go to MBK and watch the fights and offer the winners of the fights the opportunity to train at his gym, and he wanted my teacher to help him with the negotiations. Not only did he not have a clue about contractual obligations and gym loyalty bonds, but it did not even cross his mind that there might be a specific local culture to consider before you embark on something like this. Those are the people who tend to move physically, but mentally they never leave home. As a Western woman, you are often treated as the third gender, you are not a man, but you are also not a local Thai woman. You are something else. And this can be beneficial. You have more space to move. But not completely. I remember a time I went to see gym friends fight at Lumpinee. This was the first (and only time) I went there because it made me so uncomfortable. But I did go. I had to pay almost full farang price but could cheer my friends on. But after the fights were over and we were standing outside chatting and taking selfies, it somehow got decided that I would not follow to celebrate the wins. I was the only female fighter there from the gym. But not the only woman, there was a group of Thai women with the group I had never seen before and were rumoured to be second girlfriends. And before I knew what was going on, the gym guys and the girls took off to eat and drink beer while the gym owner drove me home on his bike. I didn't say anything. But the week after, a foreign fighter asked one of the Thai boys why I had not been allowed to follow to celebrate the wins. I had come all the way to Lumpinee to watch them fight? He got the reply that Arjan had taken care of me, and that was that. I obviously understood that somehow it was not appropriate for me to go and celebrate with the guys, and somehow this came from a perspective of respect. But I remember thinking that this is what it means to be part of the traditional experience. And many times, being outside the traditional experience can be beneficial even though it can make you feel like an outsider.

Thanks for elaborating. I find this very interesting and hopefully a positive development for foreign fighters, although might get a lot more complex. In the case with the guy who walked off, I did not hear it from the guy directly but was told by to other guys who trained with him. That gym owner has a lot of respect within the muay thai communit, so I guess his clout helped. Another fighter at that gym also expressed frustration with the situation, but had -instead of just walking off- tried to talk to the gym owner and get him to introduce him to other gyms where he could get training but still would fight for his old gym. But it did not really seem to work. I feel sorry for them but I guess this are the things you need to accept if you want the traditional experience.

This is incredibly interesting. I'm curious to hear what kind of reactions his statement received? Also, is he asking for more formal regulation or is it rather an appeal for mutual respect among gym owners? And can you view this as criticism directed to foreign fighters and lack of gym loyalty? I heard about a foreign fighter at one of my previous gyms who got fed up with lack of proper training in-between second and third covid wave and simply walked off to a different gym. But he was brought back as the gym owner went to his new gym and told them he was "his" fighter. Just a side note...

I hear you. And especially discussions like these where we all have so many different experiences and reference points. I like both, getting time to learn something on my own, feeling it in my body. But also, sometimes it just helps with a very practical tip. I very much enjoy reading this discussion. Not only because of martial arts but also because its so important nowadays to learn how to learn.

I didn't mean to disagree with you. Rather the clinch experience made me think of something I read a while ago.

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing. I guess also the perspective of not expecting to know anything (like a child) can allow one to get rid of assumptions and open our minds to understand things we didn't expect. Also very impressive considering how complex Foucault is and how different German is compared to English.

This reminds me of a section in Kotler's book The Art of Impossible where he describes the art of learning. Understanding the "terminology" through exposing yourself to the feeling of being dumb. You gotta get through that part to learn it in a profound way and after a while your brain will recognize the patterns and connect the dots. And this happens on a subconscious level. Sure you could hack yourself to it, but would the knowledge be anchored in you?

Hi! I'm helping a sister out. She's a Myanmar lethwei champ who fought both Sawsing sor Sopit and Miriam Sabot (draws). She also has a western boxing background. Due to the military coup in Myanmar, she's trying to get to Thailand to train muay thai but also possibly venture into MMA. Only visas possible now for Myanmar people are education and work visas. Would you know of any gyms in Thailand that offer ED visas right now? We've been in touch with Tiger and Emerald already. A plus if they have MMA/BJJ training. Thanks a lot in advance.

My trainer (lethwei fighter) has a western boxing and MMA background which he uses for my footwork drills, and he shows me various movements with this lying ladder thing and cones. I think we rotate something like 20 various movements (5x3 rounds, forward and backwards at the end of every second session) plus single leg balancing things (stand on one leg, stand on one leg jump forward sideways backwards). We also do several rounds of frog jumps (low squat jumps) and duckwalks. I love Knees over Toes guy. I also ask my friend and coach Bryan for a lot of advice. He produces a lot of great content related to posture and alignment here: https://instagram.com/fit.coach_bryan?utm_medium=copy_link

This is really helpful!

Ooooh what an interesting topic, grow through adversity. I've had meniscus tears on both knees, I am almost fully healed and they have helped me get better footwork, stronger kicks and I'm more versatile. Footwork: agility drills are great knee strengthening exercises so I've been doing countless drills (walking backwards also helps) which has also given me lighter and faster feet. Stronger kicks: I've been doing low squat jumps, duck walks, single-leg balance drills to strengthen my knees. This has also given me a lot more kick power. Versatility: To avoid putting too much stress on one knee I've practiced switching stances a lot which has helped me improve my southpaw stance. In sparring, if I feel any discomfort in one knee I simply switch stance. I've healed my knees through my own research and help from trainers, traditional and new knowledge.

I've always admired those with a beautiful strong shadow boxing kicks. The ones that cut through the air with complete focus and balance. The one that comes from the hip and snaps like a whip. I've tried to find a good example, you can see something similar here: I've been trying to improve my own kicks like this but can't get the hip movement right (kick on pad/bag no issue). I was given two pieces of advice, one (very funny) is to twirl like Cinderella to get used to the full twisting movement. One was to kick and then midway in: grab my ankle, pull it towards my thigh/buttock and balance on the ball of my foot while connecting with my hip power. Still, it's just hard to get it right. It's way easier to hit a target than kick through the air. Anyone having some kind of advice? Just a matter of iteration plus repetition? It's a bit of an ego thing of mine to get it right...but of course also, learning to kick through the target than just hit it.

I'm having similar issues. Twice a teep got caught and pulled causing meniscae tears. Not my opponents fault, my knees were stressed already due to lack of knee strengthening exercises. I highly recommend focus on VMO muscle strength like wall sits and agility training. And walking and doing drills backwards. Knees over toes-guy on instagram is excellent for knee rehab philosophy. Since then my teeps are somewhat hesitant, I sometimes aim too low and slow as my body remembers how I got injured. I'm working on aiming high, or aiming for the thigh. And keeping distance while teeping. Having an opponent or trainer taking off his or her shirt helps too to see the body. If it's possible. Sylvie posted a video recently where Karuhat explained how teeps are actually also a movement used for attacks rather than only used for defence (I think it was on her Facebook page). This helped me mentally, as with forward striking movements I focus more on striking fast and quickly pull back so my leg stays up throughout the movement. Not sure it makes sense.

Yes exactly this is what I was taught. Brilliant movement when you stuck in clinch and can't knee. Thanks for looking up and sharing. God it hurts! Also been taught the inside thigh kick followed by head kick a lot (front leg hits opponent inside front leg and with same front leg you follow up with head kick as opponent naturally buckles a bit. Actually had a conditoning drill today where my trainer kicks my inside thighs thirty times as in the video followed by thirty outside thigh kicks.

Thank you @Kevin von Duuglas-Ittuthis is helpful. As I have a lot of respect for traditional muay thai rules, these would always be my goal. I hate to be the farang going for KO to avoid dealing with the intricacies of muay thai scoring. To show understanding of the rules, is to me to respect the art. I'm not sure you would agree, but when Alyssia fought Stamp and won I saw the power of the strong basics of maintaining posture and using kicks as first weapon. I loved it. She didn't use much technique. Just basic muay thai and won. Newer kind of lethwei is very hand focused and their kicks are of the "stabbing version". Straight butterfly knife stab kicks. Older fights are more similar to muay thai. Exchange of beautiful kicks and only headbutt when it actually serves a purpose. I'm trying to learn this. Rather than the brutal: go forward and attack with no plan and full aggression. My desire would always be to go for technique. Sadly, seems like my hands are now, when I actually learnt how to transfer power from hip through shoulder to hands, my strongest weapons. But my preference would always be muay thai. I'm not sure, but the refinement Thailand managed to do and the national ownership of the sport is something neighbouring countries could learn from. I also believe, it benefits women fighters. It's good advice on the 3 round "sensational fights". I just don't like them. But beggars can't be choosers. I'd take any fight if even possible this year. Fighting under traditional muay thai rules to me are what would benefit me the most in terms of learning. Learning patience, calmness, non-aggresive violence and simply technique. To be honest, after this exchange I'll work on checking kicks and combine landing kicks following up with punches. Thank you. Not much in the public space on muay thai scoring. So it's appreciated.

This above is really helpful, thank you. It makes me think a lot. All I know about muay thai scoring is what I learned here. And just from observing, which can be deceiving. A follow up question, not sure if it can be answered easily. If a fighter is throwing kicks and knees and the opponent checks them or takes them but remains seemingly unphased by them, yet remains the more passive one in terms of attacks, but the attacks, mainly through hands, are sharp and have more impact. The scoring would be in favor of the more passive, but sharper fighter? Dominance, technique and control of fight narrative wins the fight (generally)? Regardless of number of attacks?