The Struggle Over Muay Thai History Under Pressure from the West
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By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
There is a cultural dimension worth mentioning here because it goes against a lot of our Western sport assumptions. Because Thailand's society is still largely traditional, and because Muay Thai itself is founded on a certain kind of social capital agonism (which is to say, social standing of gym owners and such is what is actually at stake in variously gambled on fights), "fairness" is not really the goal of much match making in Thailand. That is to say, the Western, somewhat amateur-coded concepts of competition, in the abstract, don't really apply. Instead, putting your thumb on a matchup, forcing disadvantages on your opponent is a sign of your social standing, of your social power. For this reason there is a kind of tidal current in the traditional form of the sport which pushes towards uneven matchups. The disparity goes to the glory of the more powerful agent. Thais - and I don't want to be homegeneous about this, but just being quite general about it - don't really think twice about this kind of top down thumb-on-the-scale, at least not the same terms we in the West do in the light of abstract "equality". It's about hierarchy, and fighters are representing a contested hierarchy of powers. Its for this reason why a gym will be reluctant to take a weight disadvantage, for this can signify a lack of power. Importantly, what corrects this tidal current towards unfairness is gambling itself, at least in principle. If powerful gyms push too hard on the scale, moving towards unfairness, nobody will bet on the fight. Gambling has been a corrective, pushing towards more or less "fair" in matchups. If people are willing to bet, game on. This corrective aspect of gambling though, in trad Bangkok stadia Muay Thai, has been under erosion for some time, as powerful gyms also have aligned with or are powerful gamblers, so the very odds of particular fights can be unduly swayed fight to fight (and again, this thumb on the scale is a signature of social power. It's criticized as "corruption", but it also reads as a respected ability to flex and dominate). The complicated thing is, when dealing with big, powerful gyms in a commercial milieu, without gambling, or at least without it being dominant, in terms of a soft power tourism of Muay Thai, powerful gyms even owned by foreigners (but socially run by Thais), and Thai gyms themselves, will be very willing to make unfair matchups for Westerners. Not only does it help with the overall economy of the sport, a local tourism economy, it actually fits into the traditional hierarchy concept that domination, thumbs on the scales isn't necessarily "bad". It can be a sign of social power in a traditional way. The notion of "fairness" isn't the overriding one in many of these exchanges. This is very hard for Westerners to understand, because it goes somewhat against our framework for sport. You may be given advantages in part because this is a social power flex, if your gym is very powerful in a scene. (Local gambling very well might correct some of this.) This is one reason why Sylvie has steered clear of being represented by big gyms in match-making. What often happens is that once a fighter becomes dominant in a more traditional space, they stop fighting more or less, or fights much less frequently. They will not take on big weight disadvantages to equal match ups because this is a sign of lower social power, and gamblers won't bet on their fights. This is likely why Dieselnoi retired at such an early age, for instance. Not so much that he ran out of all opponents, but because social power displays and gambling interests no longer aligned. The social power of foreign-focused Thai gyms is very hard to gauge. They may have great importance is local Muay Thai scenes. The equality corrective of gambling may not be in full force. It's enough to say that its a complicating aspect of Muay Thai match making. Because Sylvie has wanted to fight as much as possible, she moved away from this complication as much as possible. She didn't want a thumb on the scale if it could be there, and instead took increasingly extreme weight disadvantages that a Thai gym would never really take (due to how it looks). It's not an ideal solution at all, but it was the one we went with. There are all kinds of problems with it, including Sylvie having to become fairly fluent in Thai and building her own fight booking network of friendships and relationships all over the country, in a very idiosyncratic way, and of course at times taking on extreme weight disadvantages. It was our way of avoiding many of the thumb-down power structures in the sport, which can produce wins and some great opportunities but also can be quite imprisoning of opportunity as well after a stretch of success. This relationship to power in-balances in a traditional culture and the idea of fairness we can import into Thailand (to be clear, there are also ideals of fairness as well in Thailand, they are just folded in with older forms of social power expression) makes the question of "authenticity" a very shifting one. A very brief checklist may be: Is social power disparity power involved? What are the weight differences? Is there gambling as a corrective influence? Of course larger bodied fighters can do very little about weight differences often, as the pool is limited, but it is always a factor. They may have to take on those conditions to participate at all, that's how it is. Also, notably, weight advantages often make up for experience or skill level differences in matchups. I only note it as part of the equation. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Not your chosen location, but Pattaya has Rambaa's gym which is famous for its fairly traditional training with lots of Thai boys, and Western fighting kids being folded into it all. He's got a pretty good system developed over time, preserving both the old style gym and welcoming foreign young fighters. Also Silk Muay Thai is a kid adapted gym with much more of a Westernized training style (and much more modern/western accommodations). They also have Thai kids developing out of the gym, and put on trad fight shows, so its a hybrid space. The owner Daniel's kids train and fight there, so the whole thing is very kid conscious, and its well connected in terms of fight opportunities. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Two previous articles on the subject: and also previously this
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By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
I'm sorry I don't really know. Sylvie is in touch with a collector and this person is where she buys hers, but there are not multiple copies available. Maybe someone else would know of a larger source. -
Where can I find some physical old Muay Thai magazines? I am located in Bangkok. Thanks -
By Snack Payback · Posted
I can only comment on Perth. There's a very active Muay Thai scene here - regular shows. Plenty of gyms across the city with Thai trainers. All gyms offer trial classes so you can try a few out before committing . Direct flights to Bangkok and Phuket as well. Would you be coming over on a working holiday visa? Loads of work around Western Australia at the moment. -
By kkadzielna · Posted
Hi, I'm considering moving to Australia from the UK and I'm curious what is the scene like? Is it easy to fight frequently (proam/pro level), especially as a female? How does it compare to the UK? Any gym recommendations? I'll be grateful for any insights. -
By kkadzielna · Posted
You won't find thai style camps in Europe, because very few people can actually fight full time, especially in muay thai. As a pro you just train at a regular gym, mornings and evenings, sometimes daytime if you don't have a job or one that allows it. Best you can hope for is a gym with pro fighters in it and maybe some structured invite-only fighters classes. Even that is a big ask, most of Europe is gonna be k1 rather than muay thai. A lot of gyms claim to offer muay thai, but in reality only teach kickboxing. I think Sweden has some muay thai gyms and shows, but it seems to be an exception. I'm interested in finding a high-level muay thai gym in Europe myself, I want to go back, but it seems to me that for as long as I want to fight I'm stuck in the UK, unless I switch to k1 or MMA which I don't want to do.
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