What Does 'World Title' Really Mean in Thailand's Pro-Am World Championships?

[emma]

I wrote this post for my blog this week: What Does 'World Title' Really Mean in Thailand's Pro-Am World Championships?

It was a difficult one to write because while I have some rather strong feelings about these tournaments and the authenticity of some of the 'world champions' they produce, I really didn't want to attack anyone. Instead, I just wanted to raise an issue that is rarely spoken about. There are multiple pro-am world championship tournaments each year by a handful of different organisatons, and some have shown themselves to be conducted under rather questionable terms. 

"In theory, there is nothing wrong with the idea of tournaments like these. They promote Muay Thai on a worldwide scale and bring fighters, instructors and fans from around the world together. However, it’s integral that they be carried out in an ethical way. That is, a way that upholds integrity and safety for all those involved. This is where they start to lose me".

What do you guys think? Whether you agree or disagree, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. 

 

 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

You approached this and executed your arguments very fairly, Emma. You always have a very even way of presenting things, so I wasn't surprised, but just really enjoyed your exploration of the problems while still allowing us as readers to believe we can get to something or somewhere better.

It seems that the "world title" doesn't mean much, other than when those two words are put together people who might not know (or care) anything about the sport will have an image of importance. But there's no reason the reality shouldn't carry the weight that the connotation suggestions. In the end it's a money-maker for the hosts and an exciting adventure and perceived accomplishment for those who participate. Like everyone getting a medal for completing the Disney Marathon - you ran the race, so there is something to it. But giving half the participants "world records" as titles for their time doesn't mean what it could, or maybe should. Or at least it should be recognized more readily and widely for what it already is. Which stands for all titles. The growing number of sanctioning bodies means a growing number of titles and a diluting of codified meaning between them. And even the big, long-established groups like the WPMF and WMC do some dodgy business with vacating titles and creating weird weight classes or interim titles. It's very difficult because I don't believe fighters are ever coming at it from a disingenuous place, but there's so little understanding within and across organizations that it's hard to support the objective meaning of the accomplishment while still wanting to support the subjective feeling that participants have in the accomplishment.

[emma]

Thanks, Sylvie. It's a difficult topic to talk about without offending people who've won these titles, but it's not a criticism of them at all - just the whole process! I'm really confused by the interim titles as well. Do fighters who win those even get to keep the belts?  

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

I don't believe that interim belts are kept - barely any belts are actually given here, you almost always have to have a copy made. But I don't reckon they're ever defended... it's interim.

[Freddy]

Just when I wrote that blog post of yours I thought about it again how meaningless those world titles are.

I attended two open amateur world championships. One in London organised by K1, the other one in China organised by the WKU.

For both of the tournaments I ended up having just one opponnent, in China I even fought a German girl ( I am German too). The organisation initially wanted to put together weight classes which would have meant me not only giving a away over 10kg but also 80+ fights experience. Our coaches didnt go through with this, luckily.

I didnt mind having just one opponnent, as long as I get to fight I am happy. But everything around is just crazy. I try to not tell people that I went to a world championship becaus eI think its embarrassing. Not enough fighters and world championships every other week anyway. It is really good for your own marketing, I have to admit that, but Id rather market myself through me fighting and not through a medal I got somewhere for which Im not even proud.

I also know that any of this titles are worked for too, they had to fight for it. But still, why cant they call it a normal tournament...?

The WAKO holds World Cups and Open Championships all the time, the same counts for so many other organisations. I dont think those titles arent worth that much. At least not if you know on how many fights you actually had to get there.

I think if you have an organisation who holds real qualifying tournaments and then you end up in the world championship, different countries are present and you have to work your way up the pool than this has a different significance (and there are organisations who do it that way) It also seems that in light contact kickboxing there are way more fighters and they usually have to work their way up in order to win.

 

I think the most important aspect of any world title, either a world title shot or any championship is the marketing you get, positive adverts for yourself and your gym, also given the fact that for some fights you might have to travel far and you need sponsors to support you, so telling them that you are going to a world championships means getting support much more easy than if you'd go to any other tournament.

 

This topic speaks right out my heart, and it is such a sensitive topic since the fights are still real (most of the time) and you still prepared for those fights.

[missmuaythai]

I wrote this post for my blog this week: What Does 'World Title' Really Mean in Thailand's Pro-Am World Championships?

It was a difficult one to write because while I have some rather strong feelings about these tournaments and the authenticity of some of the 'world champions' they produce, I really didn't want to attack anyone. Instead, I just wanted to raise an issue that is rarely spoken about. There are multiple pro-am world championship tournaments each year by a handful of different organisatons, and some have shown themselves to be conducted under rather questionable terms. 

 

"In theory, there is nothing wrong with the idea of tournaments like these. They promote Muay Thai on a worldwide scale and bring fighters, instructors and fans from around the world together. However, it’s integral that they be carried out in an ethical way. That is, a way that upholds integrity and safety for all those involved. This is where they start to lose me".

What do you guys think? Whether you agree or disagree, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. 

Emma. This post was fantastic. You expressed your opinions diligently and certainly opened my eyes to some things I was unaware of. Thank you!

[emma]

Emma. This post was fantastic. You expressed your opinions diligently and certainly opened my eyes to some things I was unaware of. Thank you!

Thank you!  :tongue: Glad you liked it. 

[Niamh Griffin]

Just to pick up one part of your thoughts Emma - interim titles

A female pro-boxer here Christina McMahon recently won an Interim WBC title, and I had to write about it for work so learned A LOT about titles :)

So basically an interim world title is a world title and is held simultanously with a world title in that weight category

It is offered only when the holder of the world title, who is ranked No 1 in that category is unavailable for a title defence due to serious illness or legal difficulties (I think because of travel). An interim title can only be fought for between the No 2 in that division and a serious contender ie someone ranked in the Top Ten of that division.

Both the interim world title and the world title then co-exist for a short period (not defined) until the No 1 either vacates her title or fights the winner of holder of the Interim Title. If the No 1 vacates, then it is considered that the Interim title-holder is the sole World Title holder for that division. And then the normal procedure happens for challenges etc

It caused a lot of headache for McMahon here as people were talking down her achievement (she won on points against a Zambian opponent, ranked No 2 and the fight was in Zambia - think we all know how hard it is to win on points in the opponent's home!) but she actually is a World Champion under the rules.

Hope that helps :)

[emma]

Just to pick up one part of your thoughts Emma - interim titles

A female pro-boxer here Christina McMahon recently won an Interim WBC title, and I had to write about it for work so learned A LOT about titles :)

So basically an interim world title is a world title and is held simultanously with a world title in that weight category

It is offered only when the holder of the world title, who is ranked No 1 in that category is unavailable for a title defence due to serious illness or legal difficulties (I think because of travel). An interim title can only be fought for between the No 2 in that division and a serious contender ie someone ranked in the Top Ten of that division.

Both the interim world title and the world title then co-exist for a short period (not defined) until the No 1 either vacates her title or fights the winner of holder of the Interim Title. If the No 1 vacates, then it is considered that the Interim title-holder is the sole World Title holder for that division. And then the normal procedure happens for challenges etc

It caused a lot of headache for McMahon here as people were talking down her achievement (she won on points against a Zambian opponent, ranked No 2 and the fight was in Zambia - think we all know how hard it is to win on points in the opponent's home!) but she actually is a World Champion under the rules.

Hope that helps :)

Thanks for that! I didn't know any of this, so it definitely does help. I can understand why it must be difficult for interim title winners under criticism. It's not their fault, they just do what they're supposed to do. Isn't Christina 40 years old? Amazing! Congratulations to her. Could you link us to the article you wrote? 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

It is offered only when the holder of the world title, who is ranked No 1 in that category is unavailable for a title defence due to serious illness or legal difficulties (I think because of travel). An interim title can only be fought for between the No 2 in that division and a serious contender ie someone ranked in the Top Ten of that division.

 

This is interesting and perhaps is more functional in pro-boxing, but part of the problem is that accurate and up to date public rankings don't exist for WBC Muay Thai, so it is impossible to tell if someone is in the top 10 or not? Am I maybe missing where the public WBC Muay Thai world rankings of female fighters are kept? As far as I could find the WBC Muay Thai site only shows the ranking of men . The only other source I could find was the WBC Muay Thai wikipedia page which anyone can add to or change, which lists only the champions (no rankings) with most of the weight classes empty:

The most up to date rankings seem to be kept by the WPMF - they've even (recently?) tried to keep track of Interim titles - but these are pretty much significantly out of date as lists, often containing retired or nonactive fighters. I follow the WPMF closely, much less the WBC (mostly because I can't find their active rankings, and their titles seem less frequently fought for in Thailand), and interim titles in the WPMF can seem almost randomly created for events, sometimes even with the weights of fighters not made public. "Interim" becomes a title ex nihilo (albeit between good fighters). On the other hand I also seem to remember the WBC "creating" a World Title fight in the 100 lb division, a division I don't even think existed. And then, if I'm not wrong, another "International Belt" title last August between fighters I don't think are ranked by them (at least one I suspect wasn't). The bottom line is that if rankings are not kept up to date and made public it is really hard to even know who is fighting and why? The WMC website also does not keep female fighter rankings, or up to date champions.

I agree with Emma that this isn't the faults of fighters in the least. You fight on a card, you are told it is for a title. All you can do is enthusiastically fight.

I do feel for these organizations because they are political bodies and keeping up websites is probably low on their list of priorities. But it would make a world of difference to the growth of the sport and their organizations as well if we could follow along with how they rank fighters.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Reflecting back on Emma's article I include this video of the 2015 WMO World Championship Title fight at 51 kg - a category that apparently had only 2 people in it. A fight to become World Champion.

[update, July 27, 2015: The winner of this fight Jade Sirisompan has changed the setting of the video to private]

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I ran into this article on the 2012 WMC World Title fights in Phuket. Warning, it is an extremely sharp-tongued, and very likely to some, offensive rant. It's hard to know if the author had axes to grind with specific fighters or gyms, but to those not there it does give a sense that all was not right with this event. In fact the Claire Haigh title fight is a fight that actually spurred Caley Reece to retire (the first time). By Caley's admission that world title meant a ton and it really hit her hard to have it given away. Since then organizations seem to have adopted the "interim" title as the way to go, something they don't always make clear in publicizing events where belts seem to be fought for in every fight. After this event it feels like the WMC started to recede from female fighting somehow, and the WPMF has stepped forward some. The WMC once was the dominant body.

Of course the fighters just fight, no fault to them. You fight who is put in front of you. And running sactioning bodies in Thailand must be something like herding cats, with everyone looking out for individual interests, and exercising leverage to some degree. It's just to say that maybe progress is needed.

The above fight is the fight the author is most disturbed by, Tracy Lockwood vs Gerry Rawai. The final round indeed was cut short, only about 1:10 in length.