Journaling - Readings, Muay Thai, Concepts and Articulations

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This was all in answer to someone asking if learning Boxing would improve one's Muay Thai, my thoughts on that:

Thailand's traditional Muay Thai was developed through a century-long dialogue with Western boxing - first through the influence of the British in the early 20th century, then the influence of American boxing in the mid-century. A great deal of this simply never "got into" Westernized versions of Muay Thai, mostly because it was exporting specific techniques, and was focused on all the ways Muay Thai was NOT like boxing. It has, historically, a lot of boxing reference and influence, at least in strains.

This if further complicated by the fact that Boxing's influence on TODAY's Muay Thai in Thailand has dramatically dropped off. Arguably the deep fall in skill level (eyes, timing, defense, improvisation, variety of techniques, etc) across the board in Muay Thai among Thais can in part be laid at the loss of this past relationship.

So yes, I would say training and maybe even more importantly fighting in Boxing probably gets you closer to the highest levels of Thailand's Muay Thai as it was in the its past (for instance the Golden Age 1980s-1990s). Aside from countless insight into technical aspects of the sport, footwork, a feeling for the control of distance and continuity, just being able to become comfortable in the pocket and defend yourself there will keep you from having to defend yourself by taking distance, a common "hack" of defense itself.

But also..."training combos" isn't really what I would mean by "Boxing"...something some people mistake. It's almost the opposite of Boxing proper.

[edit in for context: a look at the two top Muay Thai fighters in Thailand in the 1930s who also were top boxers in the SEA boxing circuit:

What Was Early Modern Muay Thai Like? New Film Evidence (1936): Samarn Dilokvilas vs Somphong Vejasidh

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

A Battle of Affects

I've argued that the highly Westernized (Globalized) affect expression in ONE and other Entertainment Muay Thai, typified in the Scream face you'll see in fight posters (which sometimes ironically looks like a yawn) and in post fight celebration, expressing aggro values that work against the traditional affects of Thailand's trad Muay Thai, a fighting art that comes out of Buddhistic culture largely organized around self-control...(that's a mouthful!) is attempting to invert Muay Thai's relationship to violence itself. 

It is interesting that spreading in the trad circuit is this mindfulness/meditative post-fight victory pose, an example of which is here, the young fighter with his trainer. 

 

 

 

This is no small thing because arguably culture is made up of prescriptions of "how you should feel", largely expressed in idealized body language and facial expression. When you change that prescription, in fact inverting, you are challenging the main messages of culture itself. One of the gifts of Thailand's traditional Muay Thai, I have discussed, is that it provides a different affectual understanding of violence itself, which then cashes out in simply more effective fighting in the ring. Something of a gift to a world that is more and more oriented toward rage and outrage.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

This story is about mastering energy, and focus on the few techniques that will bring it forward. The Unexpected.

Sylvie put together her commentary on Fight 285. The fight is a beautiful example of two huge things that determine a fair number of fights: Energy and technique. One of the things that had a shaping impact on this fight was that when we travel like this, Ronin style, just quite far into rings that are on the outer edge of Thailand, far from the tourism Muay Thai, there is a wonderful kind of freedom from the politics of expectation, and by that I mean the sort of self-judgement that a fighter can bring in fear of disappointing others. In this fight it felt like we were traveling all the way to the Moon, ready to fight all renegade style (Sylvie in fact was booked to fight a Boxing fight back in Bangkok the next day, we would have to get in the car and drive all night to just make the Boxing fight with a few hours to spare, so just a tremendous old style adventure). But Yodkhunpon, who had never been to any of Sylvie's fights before, but had sparred with her pretty much daily for 5+ years, just shows up at the venue as we are ready to lay our mat down, unannounced. He's perfect and wonderful, but it was a huge deflation in that fight freedom and mission, with almost a depressive effect, at least as much as I could feel. It's like you went and climbed a far off mountain nobody climbs, and your best buddy is sitting there at the summit "Hey!" - totally unexpected, and even though great, completely antithetical to what you had mentally prepared for. We were ready for a marathon run of two fights, the greatest challenge of which wasn't the fights themselves - it was the tons and tons of driving, and lots of exhaustion - but suddenly it was a Pop Quiz on a single fight late in the night - Yodkhunpon had no idea Sylvie was fighting back in Bangkok the next afternoon. She wasn't running a 10K, she was running an Ultra that nobody knew about. The mission was: drive 8 hours into the night, sit several of hours on a mat, fight, drive 8 hours through the night back to Bangkok and get to a hotel maybe around 10 am, fight the Boxing fight around 2 pm, two fights in 26 hours 1000+ km of driving (it was an off coincidence that she had been double booked, and decided to honor it). She can fight like that back to back because she carries very little mental baggage with her when she does. It's just like a machine, a runner that gets into her cadence. She just puts her head down and fights free. So, it was a very difficult mental test record scratch. Suddenly the mind is not on the fight, or really more the long term mission, its on this unexpected change, a new focus. I could feel her deflation. I'm very sure that Yodkhunpon was just offering huge support, because fighting without entourage is a definite cultural no-no in Thailand, nobody does it, and it signals only weakness. But, this is the beauty of fighting so much. You discover these mental challenges that arise out of nothing. (Yodkhunpon also showed up unexpected on the mat laydown 2 fights later in Buriram at Fight 287, to every different effect, as Sylvie was already fighting under Therdkiat and was geared for that kind of relation.)

Secondly, Sylvie's outside grabs just killed any momentum and intensity should could muster (fighting that unexpected deflation). Outside position means that you have to work immediately to try and get to a positive position, so you are never imposing yourself upon entry. This means running up hill to start every engagement in the clinch, a serious energy/momentum drain. The combination of the two of these, the emotional energy, the weaker technical entries (and the skill of the opponent) just made this a very steep grade to climb. Add in the cuts (which swung the score) and its an near impossible elevation. And in fact Sylvie's grit and experience gave her a great performance under those conditions. She pulled enough together that if there wasn't the cuts and the score swing she still was right there. On the other hand the cuts of course were a technical focus and achievement by her opponent, lifting her out of a battle into a open lane. So props. 

I do think that a different mindset, without the unexpected reversal of the mental landscape, would have made the difference here. Sylvie's an extremely experienced fighter who can ride through pretty much anything unexpected, and she rode through this, but it was an incredibly unusual event, two very rare things coming together. Your long time legend sparring partner shows up to corner you 500 km from where you expect he is, no word that's he's coming, for the first time ever appearing at a fight of yours...just as you are attempting a fight ultra that needs to be extremely streamlined emotionally. She did kind of fantastic in this equation, but took 7 stitches for it.

But, the main focus of my commentary here more is the way that individual techniques and broad scale "energy" shapes connect up together to determine fights. The energy and tempo of a fighter can be undermined or amplified by small technical things. Inside grabs can become accelerants just when you need them to lift you.

 

I also thought that Sylvie fought great in the 5th round. She minimized it because of fight context and that she had refused to chase the win, but she actually was out timing a timing fighter, and seemed to find some special internal rhythms that got her clicking...not for this fight, but for layers of future fights, something to tap into. Sometimes in a fight - especially in a career of hundreds of fights - where you have to explore a space, even if it doesn't serve victory just then and there. There is no replicating the ring, even in sparring. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Reading now on the idea that "technique", well, much more the focus on the machine of artistic development and expression, the focus on the craft of making, can be understood as a prelude to contemplation. Poet-engineer, poet-warrior, understood through German Romanticism, Novalis and Simondon. This is really the discovery of the meaning of aesthetic. Just beginning the essay though. (I suspect this is much of what Sylvie has been doing, and is the proper perspective to take toward "technique" which can become quite fetishized and worse, commodified, biomechanized in fighting. PDF posted below if anyone wants to read the article.

 

Simondon_and_Novalis_Notes_for_a_Romanti.pdf

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

What many do not appreciate is that much of Thailand's traditional Muay Thai is really a Shield and Sword style of fighting, because of its inherent priority of defense. Offense largely is built off of the dexterous use of "shield". 

Entertainment Muay Thai is essentially turning to Muay Thai's Shield and Sword and saying: "Hey, fight without a Shield!"...but still make it "Muay Thai". You can't really. It's Shield and Sword. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

One of the most interesting mysteries of the evolution of Thai clinch is how stadium Muay Thai in not more than 10 years after the legalization of trips and various sweeps (early 2000s) suddenly flourished with a complete art form of these techniques, when in fact none of them were prevalent in the decades before (the Golden Age), so much so they became signature of Thailand Muay Thai's unparalleled fighting style. 

The only answer to "why" or "how" is that these movements were already implicit, were already within the "adjacent possibles" of highly developed Golden Age Muay Thai, because Thailand's Muay Thai operated at such a deep level of attunement to balance and timing, and thus it was only a short path between almost no trips and sweeps to suddenly dominant tripping and sweeping...in a few short years.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

In making this graphic I place the silhouette of a boxer in the middle zone to illustrate how Boxing's fully developed "in pocket" fighting relates to the other zones of trad Muay Thai (and was integrated into it through 4 decades of influence from the 1950s-1980s), but the graphic is much more about thinking about Muay Thai in terms of these three zones, and how not only length of weapon, but also techniques of defense shape control over these 3 zones. In its contemporary trad versions Muay Thai has someone split into exaggerations, Muay Femeu vs Muay Khao, leaving the middle zone much less developed. I believe this is in part due to Boxing's eroding influence upon trad Muay Thai. (Importantly, "Boxing" here is not represented by combo training, which largely consists in biting down and throwing strikes that have been memorized. Boxing is a very defensive, position oriented high-level art which is about controlling middle zone...not just chopping through it, as combo fighting would have it.) Because the higher level control over the middle Blue Zone has eroded, more and more Thai fighters either defend with distance in a femeu manner, or crash through into the close proximity Red Zone, where stand up grappling can take over. This is not to say that there is no Blue Zone skills of entry, defense and attack, its just that they have eroded, there are far less "eyes" in the Blue Zone now. In the Golden Age fighters, even fighters that really favored either extreme of these zones, were also quite capable in the Blue Zone, in both defense and offense, which made the fights between shifting zones complex and compelling. Now, instead, combo-ing is filling in the Blue Zone, really antithetical to the higher level of trad Muay Thai which was founded on defense, vision and improvisational attack.

When watching a trad fight now, but really any fight, I mostly watch how fighters handle these three zones, which is to say fights are about the control of space to me. The graphic isn't meant to be exhaustive of course, but just to draw attention to these zones, and thinking about how the borders between them are managed. The emphasis though is on defense in these zones, because defense is a scoring priority in trad Muay Thai (as much as we love to look at the striking), in part because defense is much more difficult to develop, and often reflects the much more complete fighter. Keep in mind, clinch in Muay Thai is heavily a defensive sub-art.

What is beautiful about Muay Thai, especially in its Golden Age versions, but also elsewhere, is that it is about the control of all 3 Zones, especially with a defensive emphasis. We look at the striking, for which trad Muay Thai is renown, but the striking is made possible because paths are already conditioned by defensive shaping of the zone, and the borders of the zone. It's a high art of control, and therefore dominance, and not of aggression, though aggression at select times plays a role.

 

I should also add, because of the nature of the 3 Zones how you move through zones becomes really important. This means your tempo, your footwork, and your defensive composition all have a hidden impact on one's success in a fight...and it means that if you can prevent your opponent from moving through the zones with control - one reason why the teep is so powerful in trad Muay Thai - this can overcome all kinds of other disadvantages you might have. Zone transition is at times more important than you "techniques" even though lots of non-Thais train "techniques" endlessly, trying to perfect them. Very good padwork, in the Thai style, is actually about transitioning between zones, managing zones in terms of control, and attack. It's not about the strikes, though it seems to be. This is why it is sometimes hard for non-Thais to achieve as padholders what the best Thais are doing. Because Thai padmen are often ex-fighters who have absorbed sensitivity to the 3 zones, they instinctively are working training fighters through each of these zones, its within the nature of their footwork, even as padmen. When non-Thais approximate Thai padwork everyone's eyes on the strikes. It should be on the feet, and on the spatial changes...when the padman is engaged. This is a kind of internal secret to some of Thai style padholding.

Because zones matter, where you "set up" can also be extremely important and have a hidden impact on the shape of a fight. Are you setting up "in a zone" (that you prefer)? Are you setting up on the edge of a zone that your opponent does not prefer? Watching where a fighter sets up, at what distance, and even seeing how it changes over the course of a fight can be an barometer of how the fight may go.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 6/6/2025 at 3:15 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

This basketball commentary can EASILY be a primary insight into what is wrong with a lot of Muay Thai, and what set out the great Golden Age fighters of Thailand, from today. Everyone is "technique" training, trying to crib, drill and copy in Muay Thai. In kaimuay culture the higher level capacities of fighters were made through play, and fighting. 

 

 

A little bit more on the gentrification of American Basketball, with the emphasis on drilling and trainers, and not on expressive play-based development. Muay Thai as well is going through a gentrification, both internally and externally. 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Bookmarking this here. I've been working a Philosophical/Metaphysical theory which helps explain why Thailand's traditional Muay Thai is so difficult to export, especially when biomechanically traced and approximated, in individual techniques. The Philosopher Simondon's theory of concretization, read as elegance, when describing the development of technological objects (and I do consider Muay Thai as a fighting art a "technology", definition coming) and their concretization as they both develop internal coherence and an integration within their milieus, a worthy framework for such a theory. 

 

from: 

“Concretizing Simondon and Constructivism: A Recursive Contribution to the Theory of Concretization,”.