Journaling - Readings, Muay Thai, Concepts and Articulations

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Origins of Muay Thai Clinch Fighting Through Indianization

Bookmarking for later. Southeast Asia went through an extensive Indianization period, a 1,000 years (?), in which much of the royal court structure of governance, and Hinduism (the Buddhism) established itself in mainland SEA. It has been broadly likened to perhaps the Romanization of Europe. Aspects of the Indian caste system also established themselves. What has been little discussed (that I have seen) is the likely martial arts influence from India. Things like Thailand's Muay Thai and its Khmer and South China precursors are not really discussed, historically, in the contest of an Indianizing influence (even though quite late in this), in Ayuthaya, the Siam King had a personal guard of 200 Persian/Indian warriors.

I don't have much to say on that, but for a while now I imagined that the wrestling portion of Siam's Muay Thai likely came from this very old influence from India. The oldest sport versions of Muay Thai (gambled) include the mention of wrestling.

Things of note:

• Hanuman was famed for being a great wrestler in the Ramayana, and was even homaged to by wrestlers of India.
• The Indianized orgins of Thailand's royal structure, the sacred gods of Hinduism, if wrestling too was part of this cultural heritage, puts Thai clinch/wrestling in line with some of the highest forms of Siamese/Thai culture.
• There is a Burmese Indian form of wrestling (which more clearly marks out this influence). One wonders if some of the anti-wrestling Muay Thai rulesets that are often (rightly) described as anti-Judo (Japanese), could also be anti-Burmese in origin (a traditionally hated National enemy).

Wikis to look up:

 

In the Burmese state of Rhakine a form wrestling that is traditionally practices in the rural villages, and fought in festivals (sounds familiar). It has long been my thesis that sport Muay Thai developed in parallel lineages, one at the level of the Capital or civic centers of Kingdoms, with royal (and formal martial) auspices, but another at the level of the populaces, in festival rites of contest and social organization (gambled).

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 11/25/2024 at 2:38 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Now, this is a little complicated in Thailand because in terms of Thais bigger name gyms actually buy their cupcakes already made. They buy them baked. They might put them through an additional process, develop them some, but mostly they were made elsewhere, by other processes. Their core skill sets, sense of timing, eyes, defensive prowess have already been "made". If its an Entertainment Muay Thai oriented gym they may now be training combos much more (added on top of their core skills), or hitting the gym for strength. If in trad shows the fighters may just be more tuning up and staying in shape and sharp. As someone coming long term to Thailand you probably, on the other hand, really want to get into the deeper processes themselves, which may not be where big name fighters are. There could be very good training around big name fighters, but it isn't likely developmental training, the thing that makes the cupcakes. For that you need to see Thai kids and teens.

This point I was making about big gyms in Thailand with top active names, was also recently made by Gilbert Areanas when talking about Bronny (LeBron's son) training with LeBron.

""I don't wanna learn from a 40-year-old... I'm not learning what got the 40-year-old to his 40th year. I wanna see what LeBron was doing his first year."

 

Even Thais at 23-25 are very developed and experienced "vets" of the sport, and are likely training very differently than how they trained as rising fighters, becoming the fighters they are.

 

Also of note, a lot of older Thais are very drawn to Western "modern" training, if only because it is so different from what they have been doing for years, which frankly they see as boring. It also can keep them from having to grind, which mentally can be fatiguing. "Modernity" as its own allure in Thailand gyms, but does not necessarily make the best fighters.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

It was a pretty beautiful thing to watch Sylvie box yesterday, learning how to chase the Thai femeu fighter (something she's mastered in Muay Thai), at a completely different distance, under different rules. Unable to close and clinch she actually ended up getting caught in a defensive clinch, not having the Duran techniques of punching with arm control, it was just such a special thing. When you isolate like this, holes come to the fore. Everything is that 6-18 inches that pretty much every female (and many male) Muay Thai fighters ignore. Some combo through them, but its just a huge blindspot in everyone. Boxing happens in that blindspot, which is why (if you aren't just memorized combo-ing), you need eyes, and feeling feet. Sylvie has spent so much time fighting huge opponents, multiple weight classes up, she has a very strong instinct to brace for shots, to freeze. Boxing does not allow this, which is beautiful. The sport opens up, like an analytic, upon female Muay Thai, and for Sylvie origami unfolds a huge potential of being able to see and feel in those 6'-18", unlike almost every other fighter.

It was very cool to see up on the rope. And, it was very cool to see her putting it on her in the 3rd and 4th rounds, her fighter's instinct coming on.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Enjoyed watching Petchneung's grit. First fight of his I've enjoyed (not everyone's style is for everyone). Went to another country, walked through all the beatings. I could feel his heart. Hard to absorb that kind of loss at 19, but his toughness means a lot.

Kinda ridiculous that the Raja belt lives in Japan, or even that non-Thais fight each other for the belt, but we are in a new era of promotional Muay Thai.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This is very cool beautiful stuff, because athletes are always wrestling with the narrative of who they are, what they achieved, and the biggest story is the one you tell yourself. Kwame afraid because he didn't make the most of himself. Everyone's story is a real and beautiful one, make it real.