Journaling - Readings, Muay Thai, Concepts and Articulations

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Muay As Hieroglyphics

The relationship is to the muay, not to any particular opponent, or achievement, belt. Those things help you create and nurture the relationship to the muay, and that means ultimately to yourself. In the muay you see yourself sculpted out against Time, in the spirit of emotion, with your body, like a stylus that has been writing in hieroglyphics your whole life.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Muay Thai is not a commodity, it is a way of Life.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

"Progressive" Training in Thailand

Just heard about a name Thai gym's training style described as progressive. Westerners are the worst Muay Thai fighters in the world...let's train like them. smh.

 

On a deeper level, this may be the future of the sport, because the deep-learning training of Thailand's Muay Thai, how it got such excellence out of its fighters, came out of its culture, its sub-culture...which is changing/eroding. More and more those training conditions will not be available, and the lure of modernity (which doesn't actually produce fluent fighters), will always be there to fill in the increasing gap.

Unfortunately, this also ties into the very old place Western (and globalizing) culture - its "civilizing progress" ideology - has had in Thai consciousness. If it has blinking lights, its good.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Enjoyment of Festival Fights

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=942850751079497

So enjoying this Udon festival fight stream, found via Egokind (https://x.com/Egokind1)

This is the real of Muay Thai. Hell, the last fight with kids was pulling 6K viewers in the stream, while RWS was pulling 2K. There was a Japanese fighter earlier (guessing from appearances), maybe big-for-his-age 12, or maybe 14, who gave it his all as the Thai illegal tripped him endlessly, such a very real experience for him. Just hearing the crowd of gamblers and community shout on every strike, even the local commercials, this is just beautiful stuff. Hard to explain how satisfying it is when it its not just a "show" for tourists.

I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now. There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together...which is why Entertainment Muay Thai, as a tv phenomena in Thailand, was so hard to read. It was completely unreal...spectacle (Thai Fight & MAX in those days)...but then it started making claims of the real, even the "most real".

In festival fights like these you can get an entire spectrum of Muay Thai, in all its shades and colors, from spectacle to the very real. Kids on the come up, Old Men, rising stars, big side-bet fights. It's like a fair of Muay Thai.

The most wonderful is that you get the full ruleset in the provinces, including repeated and continuous clinch fighting, and very strong aesthetic sense of narrative in scoring. Everyone understands stories are being told, and they are being told at all distances, in a full range of skills, even among the less skilled. It is the spoken story of bodies.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

A Big KO Win for Sylvie's Past Opponent Hongthong

Geez, that was completely unexpected. Thought Diandra Martin would kind of walk through Hongthong tonight on RWS, but instead a very sharp KO on a 1-2 from Hongtong. Hongtong looked at a size disadvantage even, and Martin had beaten Amber Kitchen on ONE (looking it up).

Our interest in this fight was Sylvie has fought Hongthong 4 times herself giving up huge weight (about 22 lbs), and we almost always are pulling for her ex-opponents (nothing against Diandra, we just don't know her). We know Hongthong and her gym, her gymmates, and her coach well.

This is a huge win for Hongthong who has been fighting Muay Thai for long time.

I also suspect that Diandra wasn't well served by fighting a patient, "Thai Style" fight. When Hongthong can reset, reset, reset she's on much more comfortable ground.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 11/23/2024 at 8:59 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

There is a difference between a "show" that is a commercial product, and what I would call Thai spectacle. Spectacle is understood as unreal (thus, "does not count", un-significant). Thailand's Muay Thai, in its cultural fabric, can weave the spectacle and the real, together

Fake, Real & Spectacle in Thailand

I say unreal, but in another sense there is a reality to spectacle, almost an alternate enjoyment enjoyment that includes all sorts of values, but...it does not count. It is not added to that register of counting and measurement. This, I suspect, also helps explain thrown fights in even Bangkok stadium Muay Thai. When a fight is thrown, even though many will be upset, there is an additional sense of "I see what happened there, this wasn't real". The fight then slips into spectacle. This "counts" vs "spectacle" in Thailand doesn't quite match up with Western concepts of sport, where things are just real or fake, with strong judicial codification. This is one of the complexities in trying to produce "Entertainment" (Spectacle) versions of the sport/art, that are regarded as the "most real".

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

16 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I say this, as two...maybe "influencers"?? (who don't have much Muay Thai, or once had Muay Thai, but now seem to have have quite a bit of animosity), go hard at each other in the ring, right now.

This caption (below) says "Honestly, this fight was more exciting than ONE", from Remina's page

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3793175460900201&rdid=anii3llwrR2LSV4j

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Clinch Devolving

Channel 7. Muay Thai has gotten into a very bad habit of when there is a lead the ref just breaks clinch the moment it gets to the rope. This leads to just a fighter chasing to the rope, and then break, over and over and over and over. If refs would just let these positions on the rope cook for a bit, they'd start to degrade, and the fighter with the lead would have to do more than just wait for the ref.

Main event today. An early count just led to endless ref breaks.

Let clinch breathe. It builds skills, narrative.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This was good on Reddit a few years ago:

 

The Game Logic of the Danced Off 5th Round in Thailand's Muay Thai

I was having a great conversation with Sylvie about the nature of Thailand's Muay Thai this morning, and why when you have the lead in the fight, traditionally, you begin to retreat and defend that lead, instead of marching forward and adding more pressure. You ostensibly "perform your lead" by taking defensive tactics, which to many parts of the world looks like the opposite of "fighting". In a comment on Reddit I was trying to explain this phenomena through how someone like Usain Bolt will ease up and coast into the last 15 meters, in a kind of dominance while everyone else is burning hard, because of a kind of excess, "I don't even have to punch it to beat you". This is a big part of the Muay Thai aesethetic. You can read that comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MuayThai/comments/pxtv2x/i_think_people_do_not_understand_how_thailands/hesx7fs/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

The reason for this is that Thailand's Muay Thai is about dominance, not aggression. Aggression can be a tool toward dominance, but it's only one tool in the tool box. A lot of this stems from the fact that Thailand's Muay Thai evolved to express a Buddhistic culture (and a reason why I'd argue that turning MT promotions into hyper-aggressive shows can contain a hidden cultural betrayal), but as you can see from the Usain Bolt analogy, in the West we can understand this kind of "ease into the tape" signature of superiority. Even in Western boxing we can admire the artful boxer who just toys with his opponent's aggression with an artful jab, evasiveness or movement (think Ali or Mayweather), its not all that far from parts of our own sports values.

It's enough to say this led to a really interesting analogy Sylvie gave me regarding the much derided 5th round dance off in Thailand's Muay Thai. Let's say right off there are admittedly big problems with the 5th round dance off. It's safe to say that it is an aspect of Muay Thai that has become distorted and exaggerated, and not only produces unexciting ends to fights, its become the signature of big name gambling's powerful influence in the sport. This post is really about the underlying logic of the dance off, and besides its current flaws, what positive values it is expressing, helping explain how it is also viewed. Why do two fighters dance off the 5th round at times? Why does a fighter who is behind not keep trying, keep fighting?! When one fighter is signaling an insurmountable lead, why isn't the other fighter "heroically" relentless in pursuit?

Chess Gives A Clue

Sylvie's analogy comes from Chess. In Thailand's Muay Thai there is a definite "Gentleman's Sport" ethic that works to compliment it's absolute violence, so Chess is an interesting parallel. She said to me: In chess once you've gotten to the place in the game where you know by sheer logic you are going to lose you tip your own King over and resign. Masters will resign in positions that casual viewers might not even understand. There are a lot of pieces on the board! What a player is doing when they resign is showing their IQ for the game. If you continue fighting to win from unwinnable positions you can be signaling your inability to even see the board. Yes, your opponent may make an unexpected blunder. Yes, there might be buried in the position of some improbable ability to leverage a draw, but largely what is happening is that you are placing yourself ABOVE this particular game. If you struggled forward, not really realizing your fate, your would be signaling to your audience and your opponent you lack understanding. You can't see. This keys into deeper Thai cultural views that regard sheer aggression as low IQ and somewhat animalistic (non-human). You don't understand Chess.

Now, there are all kinds of Chess players, and some of them may become famous for fighting out of bad positions and stealing draws. This isn't to describe what one should do, it's to explain the logic of why a losing fighter would choose to dance off. They acknowledge the board position, they are above this particular match/game. Thai fighters fight a LOT of fights. The tournament of a career is composed of many games.

Now, once you get the logic you can also see where the problems are. If there are TOO many sprinters coasting into the tape. If there are TOO many fighters touching gloves in the 5th round, the "board" of the game is being influenced by something (or the match making is very poor). In these cases its explained that the chess board of the fight, the position that fighters are responding to, involves the heavy thumb of powerful gamblers. You touch gloves not only because of the "position" of how the fight was fought, but also understanding the powers that shape the fight as well. You can see that the lead in front of you is of a type that you would look stupid if you fought against it. You would look like you didn't understand the game and how it is won.

How the 5th round is fought has changed over the decades, to be sure. It has stretched too far into a direction, but the logic of the danced round remains the same, that of the Chess match.

Taking Ideology Into Context Too

I also think that there are cultural elements that make this hard to read from a Western perspective. In the West we have a big celebration of the Little Guy. In the mythology of the West we have the story of the insignificant man who through "hard work" overcomes all odds against him. There is not only great romance over this ideological story, fighting itself has been an entertainment form that expresses this romance. We see this in the entire Rocky Balboa Working Man franchise. For us a lot of fighting is about this. I do think these stories resonate with Thai storytelling. Great fighters of the past who became champions out of rural provinces, fighters like Samson Isaan (who literally took the name of Isaan), do represent a kind of working class, provincial victory against all odds, but this is in the context of a much less socially mobile society, than say America. The much older cultural stories of Thailand are ones of hierarchy, and layered, group-bound peoples. Part of the "checkmate in waiting" acceptance is probably best understood in this wider lack of mobility, a lack of a more highly Individualistic Self-Destiny mythology (which contains its own social ills). In "seeing the mate" in advance you to some degree transcend your situation by demonstrating that you understand it, you see the position on the board from above, you have that IQ...but you are also trapped by it, you accept THIS loss, in the name of having perhaps a better chance to win the next time.

This isn't to say that dancing off the 5th round is the right thing to do, in any particular fight, or even to say that the practice of the 5th round in today's Muay Thai doesn't need to substantively change, it does. But it's to explain the logic of it. Today's Muay Thai in Thailand is trying to take the big name Gambler's thumb off the scale, not an easy task because gambling itself is woven into the seriousness of matches, a fighter's identity, and the passion for Muay Thai itself. It's instead to try and explain the nature of some of the thinking that is beneath a 5th round performance. It is not just fighters taking a break "because they fight so much". It's locating yourself, positioning yourself socially in the game, a game you are ultimately trying to win.

If interested in my thoughts on what I believe underlies Thailand's Muay Thai can see my article on the "6 Core Aspects" https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/essence-muay-thai-6-core-aspects-makes

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Fighting Big

It's crazy, just looking at Smilla's record, a very fine fighter and possibly this gen's best fighter (?). Of the 17 documented fights, Sylvie has fought TWO of Smilla's opponents (Pornpan & Nongbiew, 1-1), and also 2 high profile opponents of her opponents (Dongkongfah - who beat Alycia Rodrigues for the Thailand belt  & Hongthong who beat Diandra Martin on RWS). Smilla is a 125 lb fighter, Sylvie a 100 lb fighter. One of these was a ways a back, so Smilla, who I love as a fighter, wasn't as big probably....but it goes to show that Sylvie has fought pretty much more than a full generation of Thai female fighters, across all weight classes.

And Sylvie is 4-3 against them.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Sylvie Prolific Fighting

counted it up just now, Sylvie is 4 opponents away from having faced 150 Thais in the ring. Unheard of fighting in Thailand.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

How to Judge a Long Term Muay Thai Gym in Thailand

A perspective of Muay Thai gyms in Thailand, from someone who has seen a few (usually with an eye towards: would this be a good place to train for Sylvie?) I've already written at length on the Authenticity of Muay Thai gyms, this is something else. This is something else. It's just a basic conception we've relied on in judging gyms. I see them something like production lines in a factory, maybe like a cupcake factory.

This is not to say that the workings of a Muay Thai gym in Thailand are mechanistic, but rather that the dynamics of the gym may be occluded from view.

You have all these gears and mechanisms, many of them you might not even understand or appreciate. Ways of training, reputation, social hierarchies & politics in the gym, the personality of the owner, fight promotion alliances, its a whole living thing in Thailand. But, what you want to look at...what I look at, is "what does it produce?" What cupcakes come down the conveyor belt? That's what the whole process is doing.

Now, this is a little complicated in Thailand because in terms of Thais bigger name gyms actually buy their cupcakes already made. They buy them baked. They might put them through an additional process, develop them some, but mostly they were made elsewhere, by other processes. Their core skill sets, sense of timing, eyes, defensive prowess have already been "made". If its an Entertainment Muay Thai oriented gym they may now be training combos much more (added on top of their core skills), or hitting the gym for strength. If in trad shows the fighters may just be more tuning up and staying in shape and sharp. As someone coming long term to Thailand you probably, on the other hand, really want to get into the deeper processes themselves, which may not be where big name fighters are. There could be very good training around big name fighters, but it isn't likely developmental training, the thing that makes the cupcakes. For that you need to see Thai kids and teens.

On another level though, many gyms have long term Westerners (and others). Pay less attention to the supposed training and trying to judge that from afar, and more paying attention to the way farang fight that have gone through that process over time. See what foreign cupcakes are coming down the conveyor belt. What do they fight like in the ring? What skills or styles do they show? Look for the kinds of cupcakes being made that you want to be like. Long-term farang usually settle into a training culture of their own in a gym, and may be even more important than the training prescription itself when it comes down to what the gym is going to make of you, because one is always taking cues from those to the left and right of you. It's one of the beautiful things about Thailand. Things like: how fast do you wrap your hands, how much do you chit-chat, do you do full rounds on the pads, do you do shadowboxing, or finish the run will be shaped by your co-fighters (students). I remember in our first year of Lanna 30 minute hand wrapping in the morning was kind of a thing, a thing Sylvie had to consciously fight against, because its was the gym tempo.

Gyms might have reputations, good or bad, but look at what they actually make. That way you can align your desires to commitment. I want to undergo that. And...if the kinds of fighters coming out of a gym, made by that gym, both Thai and farang, aren't the kind of things you like, perhaps move away from that gym, because if you undergo those processes you too will look like that, those cupcakes.

This isn't to criticize gyms, there are all kinds of cupcakes. This is actually one of our ways of thinking about gyms, for Sylvie (and sometimes others). To see the value of the forces that are at play, see what they do, and think: do I want some of that?

 

Now for Sylvie who is intensely experienced (and pretty much fluent in Thai), and who has unusual requirements in Thailand (her size, her desire to be near Thai culture & training ethics, some freedom from Thai politics), things are a bit more complex. We think about this in layers. We look at gyms and see what cupcakes they make, and take from that a certain education about what the processes will do to you. Sometimes the cupcakes that are coming out of a gym might not be all that awesome, in terms of what you want to be, but you can still learn valuably from what is produced. Sometimes you can be: I want to train at this gym for this reason, or that (but I have to be careful because I don't want to be turned into that kind of fighter, the kind that this gym's processes tend to produce). With this you can ward off, or look for those things that make that kind of fighter, or...take precautions to look for these things in oneself. A great deal of training in a gym is unconscious. You become shaped by people training beside you, for better or worse. That's why the cupcake example is important. You don't necessarily have to identity what is producing quality x or y...you just have to be aware that this is what tends to happen.

Sometimes its as simple as: This gym produces lazy fighters, this gym produces very tough fighters. Even broadbrush things like this come out of the culture of a gym and its practices. The way that authority and values are exercised, the aesthetics of its muay. This alone might be a reason to train at a gym, or avoid one. The vibe is contagious, and shaping, even if you are experienced. For Sylvie she build-a-bear's her training, from different gyms, and private training, because its hard to find a gym that has "everything" so to speak. You look at certain things different gyms do well, and try to weave them. This though, is incredibly difficult in Thailand politically, and isn't advised. I mention it only to expand on the cupcake factory idea, that gyms can tend to produce qualities, qualities that draw your eye.

To return to more regular examples, if you are drawn to technical training don't just think about whether there is correction in training. Look at how long term farang fighters fight, coming out of that gym. If you are looking for Muay Khao training, do the long term farang from that gym fight as strong Muay Khao and clinch fighters? Look at Instagram and Facebook pages and watch some fights, if you are researching seriously.

Off the top of my head if you want an example from female fighting I'd take a look at Alycia and Barbara at Phuket Fight Club, something I've thought about. I haven't a clue what their training is like, and I really don't care that they are on big name promotions. If you look at the two fighters you can see what they train. They are both intensely driven, have sound principles, fight within themselves (what they know they do well), have a core, effective forward style, are tough minded with a technical dimension and are open to clinch. There are many important things that could probably be said in much more detail by people in the ground, but you can see what the gym has made, its processes. Jalill Barnes who also trains there, much of the same qualities. I'm not even recommending the gym (I don't know much about it), I'm just using the example to show how you can see the process in fighters. I don't mean to single it out, but I needed an example to keep the whole thing from being too abstract.

It's not that everyone fights the same, or even that a gym has a style (some might). It's that certain qualities get disseminated through the process of training, and a gym's support or allowance of those qualities. Sometimes this is expressed in style, sometimes in other things. But, largely when positive qualities show themselves, things you are looking for, this is a good thing. It means that there is a consistent way.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Sylvie's Elitely Difficult Fight Record

Just organizing Sylvie's record a little bit this morning, and noting this. It may very well be that no female Muay Thai fighter has fought a tougher collection of opponents than Sylvie has in the 39 fights. These are all her opponents who have been World Champion at one point in their career, and Sylvie's record against them. What is unparalleled, I believe, isn't the sheer number of World Champion quality of fighters, but also how many times she went up in weight to face them, including jumps of multiple weight classes. Weight is the single most determining factor of fight match up fairness, whereas Sylvie has consistently fought much higher than her weight even against elite level fighters. I can't think of a fighter who has done this.

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Muay Thai Rules

The commercial generalization of a diverse art and sport into codified rules (legalization), is not entirely unlike AI generalizing living language into patterns...without actually understanding language. It moves from the specifically general, to the generally specific, via algorithm. This is to say that the specificity of a verdant expression, a concratized variety, then becomes refined as a specific generalization (a governing rule, laws), for the purposes of export, rules/laws not really involved in the generation of the concretized variety itself.

Relevant graphic:

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I feel like I've kind of resigned myself to realizing that I lived through the last of maybe classical Muay Thai, the Muay Thai of Rama IX, and it is just passing into another phase. Maybe it will bend back at some point, the country is incredibly resilient to foreign influence (though very open to it, as if it has developed an immunity over the centuries through that contact and impulse). I feel maybe less like we have to struggle to pull it all back into the other direction, away from its commodification, and more that I'm just so joyed to have experienced its final decade, to have seen it, and be living in that afterglow. I still hope to preserve as much from those final generations, hoping the seeds of that beautiful art are thrown forward...but at least today I'm more in a state of appreciation and thankfulness.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The World Broken up into its Muay Thai and BJJ parts:

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

It's pretty awesome and amazing to be having the trainer of the legend Orachannoi, a now past legend of the sport, called The Poor Man's Champion, 60 years later Arjan Gimyu, who trained Orachannoi watching Sylvie's boxing at Rambaa's and saying that it reminds him of Orachunnoi, who was known as "Golden Fist", if only to be the reason that his memory came back to him.

Orachunnaoi Hor Mahachai

 

Arjan Gimyu holding for Kaensak back in the FOTY days

Gimyu was a top Thai Boxer before he became a trainer, and was a stadium Muay Thai fighter as well. He retired from fighting at 44. He now hangs out at Rambaa's just watching the Muay.

 

This post is just an appreciation of being in contact with these memories, and also something of the belief that Western Boxing has had a profound impact on Thailand's Muay Thai, and that Sylvie in boxing her first "official" boxing fight on Saturday, and training up for it, it touching those historical threads. Arjan Gimyu looking back on his own life, and those he trained, and kind of getting excited is pretty cool for what it is.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

Watching Orachunnoi vs Phetpayao (Phayao) from 1977 today.

Phetpayao is "Phayao" the first Thai to win an Olympic medal, a Bronze at the 1976 Olympics in Boxing. Orachunnoi is in darker shorts. Phayao was trained by Arjan Surat (legend and friend, of Dejrat). He would win the WBC World Boxing title in 1983. Orachunnoi is 6 years or so his senior. Two legends of the sport. Orachannoi also was a boxer, though in the amateur Asian scene, nicknamed Golden Fist.

Because both fighters are known for their hands, and involved in boxing I really was interested in how they would face each other. Phayao's lead fan-sok elbow, and even elbow combinations were pretty surprising, elbows flowing in his boxer's set. Orachunnoi just a wider tool box. The wide-sweeping low-kick and teep working combination. Lots of Smart side teep, and even a kind of sweep-back teep to the face (twice at least), and then in the 4th round he comes inside to do the dirty work with his hands. What a beautiful fight.

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Orachunnoi interview (all in Thai), upon his Hall of Fame election, he goes through his fight book:

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

What a Fight. One of Most Personally Enjoyable Female Fights I've Seen in a Long Time

 

I may not expect others to thrill at this fight as much as Sylvie and I did, but Dangkongfah vs Karolina Lisowska of Poland was just quite an experience for us to watch. A big part of that joy was being so familiar with Thai female fighters in Thailand (Sylvie has fought nearly 150 Thais, easily the most any Westerner has fought), so in explaining what made this fight so awesome for us I get to tell the story of Thai female fighters in general, over the past 10 years or so, so I can point out just how good Dangkongfah's performance was.

As a sidenote, none of what I write is significant commentary on Karonlina, a fighter I do not know.

Appreciating That Female Fighters, Understanding Their Development

The best Thai female fighters, historically, but also still, develop their skills in the side bet circuits where local fight scenes in the provinces produce top fighters in a gambling milieu. The female fighters fight a lot, and the fights are very traditional in style (which is to say, narratively driven, balance, control and dominance being major scoring factors, purity of technique rewarded, and with clinch a significant part of all cards). Local top fighters travel around to other local top fighters in festivals, and the bet sizes go up. This prize-fighting scene produces highly skilled, complex fighters...but they tend to hit their apex around 14-15. That's when they are fighting the most frequently, training hard, and are actively being sharpened by the gambling. Once they get around that age they stop fighting so much (often because it is harder to find opponents, but also in terms of just the changing social status of young women). They can still be very, very good fighters, but they usually flatten out. In the past great fighters like Chomanee, Lomannee, Sawsing, Loma, and Phetjee Jaa came out like this. These are the yodmuay of Thai female fighting. In their later teens they might fight on the Thai National Team (amateur), but really in terms of development by 16 the peak of sidebet skill driving is missing (this side bet process is what traditionally drives the skills of male Thai fighters, well into their late 20s or even 30s, in the National Stadia.

The next gen after the one mentioned above, because the side bet scenes have been eroding, haven't really produced the classic female "yodmuay", the one who takes on all comers, and has reached the apex level in the traditional way. Potential side bet yodmuay came through like Nongbiew and Pornphan, pretty strong fighters at 15 or so, but nobody reaching those past levels (Sylvie fought both of these fighters when they were at their apex, giving up significant weight). What ended up happening in this gen is that with the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai mid-level Thai female fighters, and some top level, from the side bet circuit were brought into Entertainment oriented training. A lot of these fighters who had developed a timing and narrative prize fighting game were newly taught bite-down and combo fighting (which is pretty foreign to them). Entertainment Muay Thai wanted clashing, so female Thai fighters (who were timing fighters) learned instead how to just come in with memorized strikes. Some, got good at this, and did well in Entertainment Muay Thai, but most floundered a bit. They were fighting out of their element, away from their skill set.

Always the Underdog

The interesting thing about Dangkongfah is that she rode this wave of opportunity in Entertainment Muay Thai, she began using combos and clashing, becoming recognized on (televised) Super Champ, which was somewhat promoting her as a Thai story, but she really wasn't pretty with it at all. She in fact had been in the Fairtex stable around with Stamp was taken in and began being fashioned into an Entertainment star, but Dangkongfah was not taken seriously, perhaps viewed somewhat as a backwardish Isaan fighter, from the countryside. What people didn't appreciate, and what Entertainment Muay Thai didn't really care about, about Dangkongfah is that she's a highly developed prize-fighter, she is really, really, REALLY good at managing a fight, in the traditional sense. She doesn't usually LOOK like she's doing much, but she is really good.

So Dangkongfah was something of the Cinderella step-sister to Stamp at Fairtex. She left Fairtex, had some recognition on Hard Core (an Entertainment, small-glove show), and then got some revenge on Entertainment Muay Thai. The excellent Allycia Rodrigues beat Stamp for the ONE World Muay Thai title in August of 2020, and then one month later Dangkongfah faced Allycia for the Thailand belt (trad Muay Thai). She beat the ONE World Champion for the belt, not looking pretty at all in her combo-ish strking, but managing the fight with the brilliance of a fighter who had been fighting for prizes since a kid. It must have been a tremendously satisfying win. Allycia would then defend her ONE belt vs Janet Todd 6 months later.

Around this time Dangkongfah also took the 112 lb WBC World title vs Souris Manfredi, in a fight set up basically with the aim of giving Souris the opportunity for the much desired title shot - there had been many roadblocks. Again, in a way that was probably frustrating to her opponent, Dangkongfah controlled time and distance, walking away with the belt. She's just such an interesting fighter, but to see it, to feel it, you have to have her in the traditional ruleset.

When she fought Meksen in ONE Entertainment Muay Thai, fish out of water trying to trade wonky combos in that style with an experienced fighter, with some visible size, who will just combo cleaning up the middle. It was a blowout.

Dangkongfah had gone up to Buakaw's Banchamek gym, which had worked with talented trad female fighters trying to help them fight in the Entertainment, Kickboxing style. Sylvie's long time opponent Nanghong Liangprasert (now using the fighter name: Nong Faasai PK Saenchai) was up there. Again, this seems to largely be trad teaching timing, narrative Muay Thai fighters how to throw Entertainment combos, so they can get fight opportunities in the growing Entertainment versions of the sport.

There is another element to this story, and the appreciation of this beautiful fight (on Patong Fight Night) which is that some young Thai side bet fighters end up on commercialized gyms like Banchamek or Fairtex and start weight training and drilling combinations, but many others move out of their teen situations and stop training hard at all. They will be adding combos so they can fight and clash in Entertainment Muay Thai vs Westerners, but they will gain weight pretty quickly. By the time they are 18  or so a 51 kg fighter can easily be a 60+ kg fighter, facing Westerners. They will have added a bite-down style for Entertainment, but many are outside of the rigorous training that made them quite good when they were 14-15.

This is enough to say, when we see a Thai female fighter on television, who was once pretty skilled and sharp, often someone Sylvie has fought when they were apex, and they have gained a lot of weight, the first thought is: Are they training hard? Are they running? Will they gas? And, will they just be throwing combos (which really isn't their deeper skill set)? The expectation is that they no longer are peak. This is what made Dangkongfah's performance so stunning, and so enjoyable...so admirable.

She has gained a substantial amount of weight. She's only 22, but the guess would be that she was quite far from her peak as a fighter. She was NOT far from her peak...in fact this is probably the best I've ever seen her fight. We've seen maybe 5 fights of hers, including when she was maybe 13 in Isaan, we know her arc really well. She was so good.

I feel bad for her opponent Karonlina because there is no way she could know how good Dangkongfah is. And looking at her she might have thought she'd have it easy. This was a late replacement fight. It was NOT easy.

This is what I LOVED about Dangkongfah's performance. First, she was able to fight in the traditional style, which is HER art. So much praise for Num Noi (the promoter) for creating a REAL traditional show, right in the heart of Phuket tourism. You need a properly reffed, full-rules setting to see what Dangkongfah is, since a kid. But, what is even more cool is that wherever Dangkongfah is training they gave her a wicked jab. In fact she worked almost the entire fight through one of my favorite inner games for a fighter, Jap-Teep in combination. But these are not memorized combinations, this is using them in a creative game of timing, changing levels, intensity, feints. Entire fights can be fought through just these two strikes, and Dangkongfah is doing it at a very high level. She actually isn't teeping much, but her teep-fake is so hard (with the knee bounce) it makes the opponent bite. The form of that feignt is almost as good as a teep itself, changing levels. Just watching these two lead attacks, and the sharp quality of her jab was a thing of beauty. She had practically given up all together the wild combos she had taken up for Entertainment Muay Thai, she had returned to her timing art. This was very moving for me.

By the 3rd round her jab and teep had subtly managed to change Karolina's fight distance, putting her "on the porch" as Sylvie and I like to say, exactly where Dangkongfah wanted her, so she could control, negate and counter. In the 4th Karolina figured it out, her distance was wrong, and she tried to walk through the porch, but it was too late. Dangkonfah is very experienced with this. She just muddied up the 4th with clashes and more jabs and teeps, (a big teep to the ground to establish stylistic dominance) denying any change in the fight. She is expert at spoiling the clinch, and it served her very well, draining away any chance for a change. It had already been decided in the 3rd, in terms of style and narrative, and she just used the 4th to lock it away. Then in the 5th it was a walk home with the lead in the trad style.

This is how I like to watch fights. I don't really watch strikes. I see them like anything else, but I like to watch distance control and timing, the way the fighter manages these things.

Also, even though she had put on significant weight, she looked FANTASTIC. She wasn't winded at all (maybe a little in the 4th round some of the edge came off?), she was incredibly light on her feet (lighter than in many of her past fights), she moved like an optical illusion, subtly shifting, driving, changing angles. As a basketball fan I have a certain weakness for very light-footed, super skilled big boys like Charles Barkley or Big Baby Davis (above). When athletes are big bodied, but display finesses, touch, speed and agility, its just plain stunning. And looking at her, it even seem possible that even though she's much bigger than even a year ago, she may be power lifting? She just looked fantastic, like even though this isn't a normie body, this is HER body, and she looked totally at home in it, even maybe apex in it.

All these things together just made the fight unbelievably joyous to watch (nothing against Karolina who fought admirably). Dankongfah as the continual underdog, from Fairtex dropout to wild Entertainment combo-ist, here getting to do HER art, and with these beautiful new tools, tools of real Muay Thai, in a promotion that favors the trad art. And that she's found a place in her body where she just is being her, being free in the ring, in a non-trad body, using all her skills and instinct. Seeing this wonderful fighter having a place, a trajectory. It meant a lot.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This is Dangkongfah in her Banchamek, Entertainment stretch, 2 years ago

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

We first met Dangkongfah 7 years ago, when she was on a festival card in Nongbuacoke (Isaan) that Sylvie was on. Her name is Nong Ploy (play name), she was 15 and came out of the crowd to spontaneously help corner for Sylvie. That is her in the Hawaiian print shirt, giving Sylvie advice in the fight. We watched her fight that night too. She was dynamic, and masterful at turning the fight at the right moment.

 

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Some thoughts on women fighter's bodies and inevitable changes between childhood and adolescence, as well as a changing landscape for Thai women fighters:

this age range where female fighters hit their peak and are more or less forced to slow down due to that success (because it's harder to get fights, the side bet becomes enormous, etc) is right around when male fighters hit a rough spot as well. I can't count the number of times I've remarked on how promising some 11-14 year old boy looks and his trainer will wave his hand and say, "let's see if he can make it through motorbikes and girls," which is at around 15-18 years old, when the majority of male fighters also drop off and either become undisciplined or take on salaried jobs. Romantic relationships, increased importance of friend groups outside of the gym, and changes to the body all account for why both male and female fighters have a steep hill as they hit adolescence. Boys have a better incentive to keep fighting, as they might belong to bigger gyms or have better opportunities; girls might be pressured by family to focus on school, or the consequences of romantic (sexual) heterosexual relationships might take them out of fighting, which it doesn't do for boys in the same way.

Dangkongfah and Nong Biew are an interesting pair, both listed in Kevin's write up. Nong Biew was kind of this rising star, getting a lot of notoriety and attention as this relentless Muay Khao teenager who could pull in wins with big side bets. Dangkongfah was that, but without any of the social hype; kind of the mavric version of the prize fighter. She could get backers to put money on her and she could win these big fights, but she wasn't taken seriously in the way that other "dao rung" teenage stars are (Nong Biew, Thanonchanok, Sanaejahn, Pornpan, Sawsing, Chommanee, Duannapa). What was so fantastic is that these two young women kept getting these huge side bets put up for them to face each other, they'd get booked on a show, they'd both weigh in and arrive to the venue and then somehow we'd always read about one of them or the other storming out without fighting because something about the side-bet had changed. We even witnessed this first-hand once. I'm not sure they ever fought. But Dangkongfah vs Allycia for the first ever 1 million baht side bet in history was the culmination of what Dangkongfah's trajectory had been.

The change in female bodies is also much trickier than it is for male bodies. Male fighters might go up in weight at a rapid clip - look at 2012 for Sangmanee, who rocketed up in weight, taking belts in multiple weight classes within a single year. You'll see this in the Golden Age as well. So this rapid change in the body and increase in weight is not exclusive to either gender, but because women's bodies are coded against sport and strength in culture, when women's bodies become larger, softer, show hips or breasts, all of these get coded as being reasons or signs that she can no longer be a strong fighter. Couple that with the normal number of fighters who retire and drop off, and it seems like the point is proven (even though boys drop off, too, but girls are blamed for that one, too). Dangkongfah, as the example that Kevin is writing about above, was never a small girl. When we met her at 15 she was already quite heavy for her frame. That's just how her body wants to be. She's crazy strong and fit, never seems to gas out, and knows when to push to turn a fight into a blowout. She lost a lot of weight when she was at Fairtex for that short time, and was at her smallest-looking in the ONE fight aganst Meksen that Kevin posted, but she  honestly looks the best she ever has in this recent fight. Her body works at the size it's at. Other fighters that are in Kevin's write up, they gained a lot of weight in a short amount of time and it semed to take a toll on their fighting. But this is coupled with training less, fighting less, and in the case of a few of these women, taking time out to give birth to a baby. Which I think is amazing, because that was definitely the end to a woman's career not that long ago. But Sawsing was really the first example I can think of who came back and fought high-profile after having her first son. There are other women who have had children and kept fighting, but usually on local circuits and, again, written off because of their "not the same" bodies after such intense changes as giving birth to a child. Nong Biew fought again after her first baby was born, and it didn't go well. Allycia came back and defended her title, successfully. Faa Chiangrai came back and became WBC World Champion. These things are incredible. Men who have families (and Thais have families very young, so a lot of high profile stadium fighters are fathers to young children) absolutely have difficulties in their own training and fighting due to the responsibilities, but their bodies don't go through the same inalterable changes as birthing parents do. And men aren't written off for becoming fathers, they're kind of given a little bit of sympathy and considered less competitive as a result. Women are totally dismissed once they have children. These women who come back to fighting are just amazing.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

15 minutes ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

look at 2012 for Sangmanee, who rocketed up in weight, taking belts in multiple weight classes within a single year. You'll see this in the Golden Age as well.

Sangmanee at 15...

 

the graphic from Sylvie's excellent 2015 article on the trajectories of young Thai female and male fighters: "Judging Youth – Young, Great Male (and Female) Thai Fighters"

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

2 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

here getting to do HER art, and with these beautiful new tools, tools of real Muay Thai, in a promotion that favors the trad art.

Saying a thing or two about the Patong Fight Night promotion. This is the creation of Num Noi who owns Singpatong gym in Phuket, and who has been behind some of the bigger high-profile farang wins at Lumpinee (before the rise of Entertainment Muay Thai), with both Damian Almos and Rafi in his stable of fighters. He has created a wonderful traditional promotion with strong production values, broadcast on YouTube. All the fighters (on this card) fought in the trad style, always with a distinct effort toward Thai techniques, even when their skills were not of the highest caliber. You felt like you were watching actual Muay Thai, and not some Western mashup. This was forwarding Muay Thai.

Even at the bigger weights, in farang vs farang matchups, it made a huge difference in enjoyment. Instead of fighters holding their breath and letting go with clashing combos, they were trying to figure each other out, find advantages and solve disadvantages. There was actual narrative structure. In the fight before Dangkonfah's a Libyan fighter (I believe), in a close fight the 3rd round switched to Southpaw and discovered his American opponent had real trouble blocking kicks to the open side. It was a great adjustment, he found a weakness. Then the American (sorry, I don't remember anyone's names) started teeping his opponent's groin, repeatedly. Someone must have told him that this was legal (which it is), and may have even encouraged him (its poor sportsmanship, but hey, it can be done). It was something to watch the Libyan fighter fighter deal with this once he realized it was intentional. He got mad, switched out of Southpaw so he could go hard in his more comfortable orthodox. In a way, it had worked. The kicking advantage was lost. Between rounds, going into the 5th, he must have been told to go back to Southpaw and he did, and he regained his advantage. With some excitement he finally had pinned his somewhat enraging opponent in the corner with leg kicks, and you just held your breath. Would it keep kicking? Would this be a leg kick KO?

The whole thing had tremendous narrative, even with the somewhat dirty play, because this is traditional Muay Thai, and fighters are forced to solve each other. It doesn't matter that the fight wasn't at some elite level. The fighters were well-matched, they were bringing the weapons they knew well, it was a wonderful dialogue of combat. If it had been Entertainment combo-ing over and over it would have been unwatchable (for me personally). Instead, it was a joy to watch. Muay Thai when it is properly fought has something to say at all levels.