Journaling - Readings, Muay Thai, Concepts and Articulations

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Jean-Luc Nancy (to turn to him again) gives what he claims to be an illustration of violence: the extraction of a screw with a pair of pliers rather than a screwdriver. How are we to understand violence from this example? Using pliers is not the proper way to extract a screw. It is the wrong way – the disorderly way – to do it. The screw is extracted, the goal is achieved, but the means are violent.

- Violence, Image and Victim in Bataille, Agamben and Girard (16)

On Muay Thai and Violence

Lechte cites a very productive line of analysis of the ethical picture of Muay Thai, this is to say, a picture of Thailand's Muay Thai that assays its worth by what it says and does with violence. It's been my argument for some time that Thailand's Muay Thai has something to teach the Global West - perhaps the world - something significant about violence, and the agonistic affects of violence: anger, rage, pride, vengeance, frustration, etc, a large measure of this due to its cultural braiding with Buddhism. Here (Jean-Luc Nancy), such a picture. The use of the "wrong" tool produces violence in the (needless?) damage it does, its sheer ineffectiveness. It very well gets the job done, but brutishly. The screw itself suffers....and the pliers as well. 

We have a great deal of correspondence to this within the conceptual framework of Thailand's Muay Thai, at least in so far as it developed a femeu (artful) dimension. The femeu tool is the "right" tool, the tool for the moment. The technical elegance (and prowess) that articulates and imposes force or direction. We can see this. A femeu victory as such really in its acme ideal would do no damage. There would be pure submission (I've written about this), even without bending the will of the other.

One thinks as well about the more brute versions of the sport that are rising up, many of them focused much more on "damage". Bonuses for damage, technique clusters meant only for damage. A thought process of damage. In this way we have left the land of the screw driver and its screw. At least in this sense, we have joined Thailand's Muay Thai to violence, rather than being an art of (about) violence.

 

 

Violence, Image and Victim in Bataille, Agamben and Girard -- John Lechte.pdf

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Notes on a Theory of Writing

A theory of writing. Writing composed of strokes, escriures, lines passing through space. escriures in expressive, non-representational clusters. Asemantic gestures, intentions.

This would make shadowboxing, poetry (in brief), and drawing (in sketch) a comparable, single thing.

The ontology of a mark, a signature, a sign. A differential, as a presence. It has been said that violence is a form of writing, as it leaves a mark. This note reflecting back upon the one above it.

Reading as a form of writing, as its the eyes that also make strokes, escriures.

.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

16 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Jean-Luc Nancy (to turn to him again) gives what he claims to be an illustration of violence: the extraction of a screw with a pair of pliers rather than a screwdriver. How are we to understand violence from this example? Using pliers is not the proper way to extract a screw. It is the wrong way – the disorderly way – to do it. The screw is extracted, the goal is achieved, but the means are violent.

- Violence, Image and Victim in Bataille, Agamben and Girard (16)

 

"violence does not participate in any order of reasons, nor any set of forces oriented towards results. It denatures, wrecks, and massacres that which it assaults. Violence does not transform what it assaults; rather, it takes away its form and meaning’"

 

Think about this in terms of Thailand's Muay Thai and fighting. The purpose of the rite and practice is not to denature the other. 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This. Another form of writing.

 

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

escriures - etchings, strokes, inscriptions, grooves & sweeps, impressions, trace, arcings, adumbration, articulation.

Above is a photo of a fighter from Chatchai's shadowboxing with his hands on the hip bones, the most extensive writing strokes taken out. The body itself becomes a gesture of gestures, the feet and torso moves toward the visual language, developing the sense of the roots of writing.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Problem of Fight-Fixing, the Answers of Tradition & The Law

Some thoughts on Golden Age fighter's answer to fight-fixing.

เมื่อวานได้มีโอกาสเข้าไปคอมเม้น ข้อความของนักพากษ์มวยชื่อดัง ”มิตเตอร์ป๋อง“ ซึ่งมีคนติดตามหลายแสนคน นี่คือ สื่อวงการมวยที่มีบทบาท หลังจากมวยสยาม ของสยามกีฬาปิดตัวลง ตั้งคำถามได้ดี !!! สาเหตุของการล้มมวย อันนี้ไม่ต้องพูดถึง เพราะนานาจิตัง !!! พ่อป่วย แม่ไม่สบาย ลูกต้องไปหาหมอ !!! มาคุยเรื่อง คำถามที่ 2 “แล้วจะแก้ปัญหาอย่างไร ??? เป็นคำถามที่ดี ผมได้ตอบแบบย่อๆในคอมเม้นท์ ไปนิดนึง จึงอยากจะขยายความ ให้เห็นภาพ ที่กว้างขึ้น เผื่อว่าทางเจ้าหน้าที่รัฐ จะผ่านมาอ่านบ้าง และ นำความคิดของนักมวยเก่า ที่จบปริญญาเหมือนคุณ ไปศึกษาและหาแนวทางแก้ไข !!!! มวยล้ม มีมานาน ทุกยุคทุกสมัย เมื่อก่อนใครล้มมวย แค่เฮียเหลา แคล้ว ธนิกุล ใช้วิธีการอุ้มไปคุย แล้วบอกต่อไปมึงห้ามชกมวยอีก แค่นี้ ก็ไม่กล้าขึ้นชกตลอดชีวิต ไม่ต้องออกหนังสือห้ามให้เปลืองหมึกพิมพ์ ( เพราะเมื่อก่อนใช้พิมพ์ดีด ไม่มีหรอกคอมพิวเตอร์ ) ปัญหาวงการมวย ไม่ต้องพึ่งกฎหมาย เราดูแลกันเองได้ ตามวิถีคนมวย !!! สมัยนี้ ยุคเท่าเทียม ทุกคนเท่าเทียมกันหมด ไม่ว่าหัวหงอก หัวดำ ไม่มีใครเกรงใจใคร หรือกลัวใคร สิ่งที่ จะมาความคุมคนวงการมวยได้ ต้องใช้กฎหมายเท่านั้น ถึงเวลาแล้ว ที่เจ้าหน้าที่รัฐ ต้องทำงานบ้าง นั่งสบายมาตั้งแต่ปี 2542 (พรบ.มวยบังคับใช้) ผ่านมาถึงวันนี้ ก็ 25 ปีเต็ม ลองนับคูณเงินภาษีที่ใช้ไปกับกฎหมายมวย ไปเท่าไหร่ ได้แค่มีหน้าที่ออกใบอนุญาต เท่านั้นหรอ ??? ถ้าเป็นคนก็อายุเบญจเพศ ผ่านการบวชเรียนมาเต็มพรรษา !!! น่าจะคิดอะไรเองเพิ่มเติมได้แล้ว !!! ไม่ต้องพัฒนา แค่รักษา ควบคุม สิ่งที่คนรุ่นเก่าพัฒนากีฬามวย จนสามารถ ออกมาเป็นกฎหมายความคุมได้ ซึ่งเป็นกีฬาชนิดเดียวของประเทศไทย ที่นักกีฬา มีสวัสดิการ ตาย หรือพิการ มีเงินจากภาครัฐชดเชยให้ คนเก่าเขาทำไว้ดี นี่คุณเล่นนั่งกินบุญเก่าเขาอย่างเดียว !!! วันนี้ ต้องมีแล้วครับ “ทนายมวย ” ฟ้องทุกคนที่ทำผิดกฎหมายมวย ไม่ว่าคนล้ม คนจ้าง กรรมการ และโปรโมเตอร์ แม้กระทั่งเซียนมวย ใครโกง ยึดทรัพย์ !!! ที่เขียนมา ไม่ได้มีใจจะว่าใคร แต่สิ่งที่จะพึ่งได้ ให้วงการมวยอยู่รอด ต้องพึ่งกฎหมายเท่านั้น จริงๆ !!! จากนักมวยเก่าที่รักมวยไทย และอยู่กับมวยมาทังชีวิต Takrowlek Boxing is life. มวยคือชีวิต

Takrowlek's FB post

machine translate here:

Yesterday I had the opportunity to comment on the message of a famous boxing commentator "Mitter Pong" who has hundreds of thousands of followers. This is a boxing media that has played a role after Siam Boxing of Siam Sport closed down. He asked a good question!!! The cause of match-fixing, this doesn't need to be mentioned because it varies from person to person!!! Father is sick, mother is not well, child has to go see a doctor!!! Let's talk about the second question, "How to solve this problem???" It's a good question. I gave a brief answer in the comment, so I would like to elaborate a bit to give a broader picture, in case any government officials happen to read this and study the ideas of former boxers who graduated like you and find a solution!!!! Match-fixing has been around for a long time, in every era. In the past, if someone fixed a match, just Brother Lao Klaew Thanikul [powerful promoter and owner of the Thanikul Gym] would carry them away to talk to them and tell them that they were forbidden from boxing anymore. That's all. They wouldn't dare to fight for the rest of their lives. There was no need to issue a prohibition notice and waste printer ink (because in the past, they used typewriters, no computers). Boxing problems didn't need to rely on the law. We could take care of each other, the way boxers are!!! This era is an era of equality. Everyone is equal. No matter whether you have grey hair or black hair, no one respects or is afraid of anyone. The only way to control people in the boxing industry is through the law. It’s time for government officials to do some work. They’ve been sitting comfortably since 1999 (the Boxing Act came into effect). Today, it’s been 25 full years. Try multiplying the tax money spent on boxing laws, how much have they spent just issuing licenses? Is that all??? If they were people, they would be 25 years old and have been ordained as a monk for the full Buddhist Lent!!! They should be able to think of more by themselves!!! No need to develop, just maintain and control what the older generation developed for the sport of boxing until it could be issued as a law to control it. It is the only sport in Thailand where athletes have welfare. If they die or become disabled, the government will compensate them with money. The older generation did well. Now you just sit and take advantage of their past good deeds!!! Today, there must be a “boxing lawyer” to sue everyone who breaks boxing laws, whether they knock down opponents, employers, referees, and promoters, even boxing experts. Whoever cheats, seize their assets!!! What I’ve written is not to criticize anyone, but the only thing that can be relied on for the boxing industry to survive is the law. Really!!! From a former boxer who loves Muay Thai. And I've been with boxing my whole life. Takrowlek Boxing is life. Boxing is life.

Leaving aside the polemics, philosophically, Takrowlek is making a very interesting point, a point made for over 2,000 years in the West. Traditional forms (founded with social hierarchies, High and Low) become flattened into equalities, as they become unified under the State. Bound, clannish codes of conduct come in conflict with a broad law, which at least in theory sees everyone as the same. Sophocles's play Antigone tells of this in tragedy, as she seeks to bury her brother (by a code of blood), which has been forbidden by the Law (The State, Kreon). Thailand's is a hybrid culture, in the very broad sense, in which social hierarchies still structure power (authority), and guide traditional meaningfulness, but as it reached toward the modern Nation, law began leveling local hierarchies. There is a fundamental tension in this, again, in the West several thousand years old. Takrowlek relates how social hierarchies composed authorities, traditional high-and-low, which kept things in line. There was fight fixing, even a great deal of it, but there was a structure to authority which maintained a balance and gave everything more meaning. Dieselnoi, who was a fighter closely connected to Klaew, also has related how referees held much more social authority in the past, were much more respected and held to a very high standard, within a more traditional social form. Aside from the threats of Klaew, a notorious mafia boss, presiding over fighters, Muay Thai existed in a more august state through traditional forms, reflected in the social status of referees and the authorities they were under. Tradition, while restricting social movement (which today we find unjust), also constrained malfeasance. The culture was more traditional then, even when populated with bosses of every kind. This has become much more fluid 50 years later.

In this picture of Tradition (hierarchies) vs The Law, Capitalism takes a very important role. Capitalism, in its most theoretical aspect, has been argued to be one of the most erosive (liberating?) forces upon tradition. The structured bounds of meaningful culture and authority become loosened and made to flow. Everything becomes unmoored. The Law, with its ideal of equalities, works within Capitalism's loosen-ings to restructure authority and power. The flattening of social life, which Takrowlek compares to the grey and black haired being regarded as the same, runs parallel to the abstraction of power as merely transposable, neutralizing, hoardable "money", and the equalities under the Law.

This is to say, Takrowlek's appeal to the Law as the only possible solution for the fixing of Muay Thai fights in the stadia comes in the context that in Thailand's hybrid (traditional, modern, capitalist) culture it is unlikely that tradition can come to the rescue. As Capitalism (money) exerts more and more erosive force on social hierarchies, the less likely they can contain the avarice of money or its flow into new political forces in the stadia. Hierachies are still operating, still forming, because Thailand is still a traditional culture, with veins of belief and practice running down into its history, but hierarchies shift with the fluidity of the flow of Capital, outside of traditional forms. Only the Law and its enforcement, Money's Twin, can address the problem of fixed fights, in the absence of waning tradition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

New Portrait Style

Photographed Arjan Surat and his fighter of the Golden Age Takrowlek yesterday. Incredibly pleased with this new approach.

 

 

Just on a personal note, I'm quite happy with my new black and white portrait style, only a few attempts into it. The one of Takrowlek is really stunning in a large screen, I think I'll make a print of it for him. It may be the most powerful portrait I've taken so far. This style just penetrates to the soul, the camera capturing so much. It was also satieting to be around these two passionate men of Muay Thai, as Muay Thai is going through so many changes. 

There is great difficulty in taking black and white photos of Thais though, and I really wrestled with that yesterday, I'll write about this.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Here is some extended writing on the poetics of the Deep Black portrait style I'm reaching for and the difficulties it poses in Thailand given how skin complexion is read, and how black and white photographs can be socially coded. There is great tension in how black and white photographs can be read by the West and within Thailand.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

The Noguchi Family, Kickboxing and Thailand

• 1962 the Japanese Boxer Kyu Noguchi fights the famed Thai Pone Kingpetch for his world title...but loses (video above) - Osama is 28.
• 1972 Kyu's brother Osamu Noguchi, after being banned from promoting boxing due to fight fixing, invents Kickboxing, and opens a high-end Muay Thai gym (and cafe) in Bangkok. But he is run out of town by rioters (photo below). - Osamu is 38.

• 2024 - A Japanese Kickboxer with only one Muay Thai fight on his record attempts to defend his Rajadamnern Muay Thai title, having never fought in Thailand before, under modified rules to help foreign Kickboxing styles, and entertain foreign crowds.

 

Now the Noguchi vision of hi-so, upper class Kickboxing in Bangkok has taken hold of the sport in its Entertainment versions, and in the shifting popularity of the sport among the wealthy in the Capital.

In about 60 years the Noguchi family legacy has worked through a strange arc. Osama had not even thought of Kickboxing when his brother lost to Pone Kingpetch, but he had a vision which has proven very far ahead of his time.

Speculatively. An interesting detail in Osamu's biography is that he was raised around night clubs in Shanghai run by his father (a former boxer of interesting, ultra-nationalist history), entertained by the legendary singer Dick Mine, who sang in a translated Western and popular style. Could these very early hybrid-culture experiences (up to maybe 12 years of age?) of classy entertainment, along with his father's Nationalism, have shaped his own vision of the sport much latter?

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On the other hand, as Rajadamnern stadium's RWS promotion seeks to accommodate itself in ruleset to Japanese fighters, Western fighters, and their audiences, they to their credit also have pushed hard toward preserving the distinctly Thai cultural heritage and meanings of Muay Thai, distinguishing itself from ONE (at Lumpinee) which sought to remove almost all Wai Kru and Ram Muay. ONE was pressured by legal action to change how they treated the traditional pre-dance. RWS on the other hand actually put a mandatory Wai Kru / Ram Muay into the contract, and even imposes a 20% purse penalty if you don't perform one. A fighter will have to actually learn one, if they don't have one. This is quite remarkable, aligning RWS with preservation efforts.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

The Noguchi Family, Kickboxing and Thailand

• 1962 the Japanese Boxer Kyu Noguchi fights the famed Thai Pone Kingpetch for his world title...but loses (video above) - Osama is 28.

I don't know enough about Japanese politics in the early to mid 20th century to know the accuracy, or even possible political bias in the author/s, but below is a Google translate of an article in Japanese which details the ultra-Nationalist roots of Noguchi gym, and Osamu's ultra-Nationalist boxing father, who had been jailed for an assassination attempt. The family had moved to the recently Japanese-captured Shanghai so Osamu's father could run nightclubs for the Ultranationalist and underworld figure Yoshio Kodama. Keep in mind, this is machine translated, and there may be inaccuracies. In terms of the history of Thailand's Muay Thai, and its relationship to Japan's Kickboxing in the 1970s-1980s it does give important socio-political context to the rise of Japanese Kickboxing, and also the concept of its fusion with televised Entertainment.

you can find the original article in Japanese here (found through wikipedia footnotes)

 

Also, read the wikipedia on Japanese ultra-Nationalism (Fascism): Shōwa Statism (國家主義, Kokkashugi) is the nationalist ideology associated with the Empire of Japan, particularly during the Shōwa era. It is sometimes also referred to as Emperor-system fascism (天皇制ファシズム, Tennōsei fashizumu),^[1][2] Japanese-style fascism (日本型ファシズム, Nihongata fashizumu)^[2] or Shōwa nationalism.

"...between 1921 and 1936 three serving and two former prime ministers were assassinated"

Keep in mind, Thailand has had an extended period of Fascism, beginning with the Phibun dictatorship in 1938. And it has been argued that Thailand's Bangkok Muay Thai also played a role in that ideology during those decades. Imperial Japan's occupation of Thailand during WW2 was an impactful event in the relations between the two cultures, and likely shaped how Japanese Kickboxing was received in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

The translated article:

My father was both the "strongest boxer" and a "fervent patriot"

　Noguchi Osamu's father, Noguchi Susumu, was a star in the early days of Japanese boxing.
　Born in Nezu in 1907 (Meiji 40), he was an Edokko (Tokyo native) who was strong from an early age, boasted of his fighting prowess, and was a Yokozuna in amateur sumo. As an adult, he worked hard as a stevedore in Yokohama, and was called to take part in "Juken matches," where Japanese and Westerners competed against each other in inter-school competitions held at gambling dens and churches.
　At the beginning of his career, he belonged to the "Teikoku Boxing Association Kendosha" (now Teiken Boxing Gym), which was founded by Tanabe Munehide (the half-brother of Hankyu Toho Group founder Kobayashi Ichizo, who later became the president of Korakuen Stadium and founded Korakuen Hall, the mecca of boxing). However, when the dojo closed due to lack of funds, he joined the "Dai Nippon Boxing Association," which was founded by the rising power and Kobe boss, Kano Kenji, also known as "Pisu Ken" (nephew of Kano Jigoro of the Kodokan).
　At first, the cards were arranged as a match between judo and boxing, and a judo-boxing match, but as people grew tired of it, promoter Kenji Kano switched to boxing events. In
　1927, in the main event of the first boxing event held at the Kokugikan, Noguchi Susumu defeated an American boxer and became the Japanese welterweight champion.
　Nicknamed "Lion," his aggressive fighting style and strength made him popular, and Naoki Prize-winning author Daikichi Terauchi, who watched Noguchi's matches live as a boy, called him " the greatest, biggest, and most heroic boxer in Japanese history, who will never be seen again."
　Although he was a popular boxer who attracted tens of thousands of spectators to baseball stadiums around the country and fought more than 50 matches in total, Noguchi Susumu also had another face. He was
　Toyama Mitsuru of the Genyosha, the source of the right wing in Japan. He also belonged to the right-wing group Aikokusha, founded by his successor Iwata Ainosuke, and in addition to fighting, he was also involved in political attacks, making him a national patriot = terrorist. An
　astonishing two-sword style that is unthinkable today.
　What is particularly noteworthy is that he did not retire from boxing to become a national patriot, but rather performed both roles at the same time.
　In the midst of the winds of the "Showa Restoration" before the war, not only were there the May 15th Incident and the February 26th Incident, in which military personnel attacked government officials, but there were also frequent outbreaks of terrorism in which right-wing hitmen attacked politicians.
　In 1930, HamaguchiYuki

OsachiThe Prime Minister was shot at Tokyo Station. Hamaguchi survived, but died nine months later from bacteria that had entered the wound. The shooter was Sagoya Tomeo (later Yoshiaki) of the Aikokusha.
　Sagoya Tomeo was paroled in 1940. After his release, he became the son-in-law of Iwata Ainosuke, and later became a leading figure in the right wing after the war.
　Noguchi Susumu was also like an older brother to Sagoya Tomeo.
　In 1931, the residence of the then Minister of Finance, Inoue Junnosuke, was bombed. The main culprit in this case was Osawa Yonekichi, a senior member of the Aikokusha, but Noguchi Osamu was arrested along with Inoue's younger brother, Osawa Busaburo, Akao Satoshi, Kodama Yoshio, and others. At this point, Noguchi Osamu and Kodama Yoshio had met. In
　1933, Noguchi Osamu was also involved in the attempted assassination of former Prime Minister and Rikken Minseito President Wakatsuki Reijiro. He was sentenced to five years in prison.
　When the protagonist, Noguchi Osamu, was born in 1934, his father was in prison.
　Moreover, during this period of confinement, he reunited with Kodama Yoshio, who would later become "Japan's number one mastermind" and who
　was in the same cell as him at Fuchu Prison, and they developed a strong friendship. While his father was incarcerated, his mother and son were looked after by the Osawa family of Ueno, who were senior members of Aikokusha. Incidentally, his younger brother Busaburo was involved in boxing and rakugo performances, and the profits were used to fund the Aikokusha.
　Noguchi Osamu was imprinted with boxing and performing arts performances during his early childhood.
　After his release from prison, during the Second World War, the family was invited by the Kodama Agency to live in Shanghai.
　However, his role was not to procure supplies, but to perform performing arts.
　He established the Noguchi Entertainment Department, which invited singers from Japan such as Dick Mine and Noriko Awaya, as well as the rakugo performer Torazo Hirosawa and a swordplay troupe to military entertainment facilities, and the family became involved in it.
　The foundation for Noguchi Osamu's involvement in the entertainment industry was already laid in Shanghai during the war.
　From the beginning, the author skillfully organizes and writes about the rise of boxing before the war, the complicated human relationships in the early entertainment industry, and the motives of the terrorist Susumu Noguchi's crimes.
　In other words, the essence of entertainment is to repeatedly make hostile and reconcile within the principle of competition, to follow the principles of obligation and humanity, to settle things, and to build a mutually supportive relationship.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

11 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

1972 Kyu's brother Osamu Noguchi, after being banned from promoting boxing due to fight fixing, invents Kickboxing, and opens a high-end Muay Thai gym (and cafe) in Bangkok. But he is run out of town by rioters (photo below). - Osamu is 38.

Here is a bit of follow up, and detail, coming from Osamu's Japanese wikipedia page (credit to Lev):

 

The English language report of the event in a 1976 book is here:

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Japanese Fascism and Kickboxing

Reading up on the history of Japan's ethno-Shinto Fascism, to get a better sense of where Japanese Kickboxing grew out of, and what it represented in the Yakuza-ultranationalism that produced it. This should also give some insight into Thailand's Muay Thai and ethno-centrism it might reflect. It is not uncommon even today for Thais to speak of how Muay Thai is in their blood. Recently a kru explained to us his belief that Thai fighters were like fighting chickens, bred in a sense to fight (explaing why farang and Japanese aren't very good). We couldn't very well explain that this has to do with how much embodies Thai culture (and not genetics). This concept of blood and nation runs through Thai mythos, and Thailand itself had a history of Fascism, to which Muay Thai was not immune.

The above from the following book on Japanese ultranationalism.

Japan's Holy War_ The Ideology of Radical Shinto -- Walter Skya.pdf

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

I'm enjoying this neutral palette portrait of Dieselnoi today. I usually push for contrasts, colors and forms, but I wanted to see something simple as a glass of water, and look at this wonderful man and fighter for a second.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

Edit in: We asked Arjan Surat about this and he says what the article below describes never happened. This would suggest that this article was a public pressure article by SongChai. Either Samart chose not to go, or Sityodtong stopped it, or both. Kept the discussion of it though, instead of deleting because its still an interesting event in the politics of Samart's comeback to Muay Thai.

 

Interesting detail found by Sylvie today. SongChai says that he's sending Samart over to Arjan Surat to train him up, talking about a warm up fight in November, and then a Lumpinee fight on the King's Birthday in December. from Muay Siam, October, 1987 (fights that aren't recorded as happening). In three months Samart would make his comeback to Muay Thai, fighting Panomtuanlek.

machine translate the 2nd page:

 

Smart lost his WBC World Boxing Title to Jeff Fenech in May of 1987, and here he's seen as undergoing thorough health evaluation, apparently to begin serious training. Samart is famous for not training hard at this point in his career, so its notable that he's being sent to Arjan Surat, with a house being rented nearby. Arjan Surat was renown as the boxing trainer of World Champion Payao Poontarat, but even more so for being one of the toughest trainers in Thailand. They seem to be basically moving Samart out of the Sityodtong gym, at least for a stretch, to keep his mind of training and toughen him up. Also, the emphasis on the full medical examination, could this mean that the story that the deep weight cut for the Fenech fight (which was claimed to have weakened Samart) created the impression of possible damage? Thais do believe that strong weight cuts (with Samart's admission of the use of diuretics because he was having such a hard time with it) can permanently affect your health, Dieselnoi believes this of his cut vs Samart. The medical evaluation could be in answer to those concerns.

If the machine translate is right, SongChai is talking about Samart becoming World Champion again (which could be translated as "champion of a 2nd era), establishing a budget and lining up two fights (he would end up becoming the 1988 FOTY he never fought for the Lumpinee title in the coming year), I'm not sure what that phrasing means, because he would end up re-starting his Muay Thai career in January.

It also seems quite stark that Thailand's most famous promoter, SongChai, seems to be taking Thailand's most famous fighter, Samart, out of one of its most famous gyms, Sityodtong, for this comeback. This doesn't seem like a politically neutral act, unless Derjat and and Sityodtong had a working relationship of sharing training, like many non-Bangkok gyms do with Bangkok gyms. (Wangchannoi, I believe told us that when he was younger he used to spar with Samart at Muangsurin gym, if I recall. Which would mean that in Samart's comeback he fought at least 3 fights vs former sparring partners.) This political dimension makes me wonder if Samart even ended up going to Dejrat gym, and if this article was a public pressure article. The two announced fights in it were never recorded as happening.

The well-known Panomtuanlek fight:

 

My portrait of Arjan Surat just last week:

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Thai Drag

For a long time Sylvie and I have just privately referred to some Western fighters in Thailand as doing "Thai Drag", which are these hyper stylized relaxations or over-exaggerated stylistics that indicate for them "Thai Style" when fighting in Thailand. This is difficult, in the sense that these fighters really do value and respect Thai style, and the values that drive that style and make it effective....and they are on the opposite end of the spectrum of people who come to wail it out in aggro-styles of Western combo fighting...though, some Thai Drag is kind of combo heavy, as these fighters often are "all about technique" and are very focused on precise exemplifications of "proper" technique, something they then then practice and drill in (non-Thai-style) combinations. Not relaxed at all: read my Precision – A Basic Motivation Mistake in Some Western Training  Seeing another Thai Drag example just now, it calls to mind the difficulties of Westerners (from another culture) have in respectfully and accurately taking on the fighting style/s of Thailand...but there is a dimension of this which is kind of Drag Queenish (a supporter of trans- and drag- sexualities, so not saying this in a demeaning way)

Below Dekkers in an interesting short convo talked about Western fighters at the time trying to fight like a Thai. "You're not a Thai, so don't fight like them, they are much better than you." he says:

 

I don't think Dekkers is talking about Thai Drag, at this point, which involves a sort of emotive, and physical signaturism, but he is bringing up the point of trying to adopt a foreign style. I'm not really a fan of what Dekkers brought to the sport, in terms of how much he probably spearheaded its eventual distortion into today's Entertainment Muay Thai, but for those seeking the "true" heart of Muay Thai, in both its ethos and its effectiveness, this question of Drag is an interesting one.

I think also of Skarbowsky's style, which is not pretty at all, but is quite relaxed and slowly pressuring. He lacks almost all visual signatures of "relaxation" as a stylistics, he isn't imitating relaxation...but he is very relaxed. He also isn't really bringing a Westernized Kickboxing to the ring either. He seems to have found his own, personal stylistic path within the deeper ethos of the art. He trained at the famed Jocky Gym, one of the most femeu gyms in Thai history, with fighters like Somrak in the fold at the time, but he isn't imitating a "femeu" style.

I'm not providing Skarbowsky as an ideal type or style, but he does create a contrast with Dekker's answer to Thailand's Muay Thai, without passing into drag. Andy Thomson, legendary farang trainer of Lanna in Chiang Mai who trained many, many farang over the years, used to say that everyone has their own Muay Thai, there are thousands of Muay Thai.

 

This isn't a criticism of Western fighters who fight in what might be seen as a kind of Thai Drag, every fighter is sincere in developing their style, but this is rather to share our own thoughts about Western ethos and Thai sensibilities as expressed in style; we realize "technique" loving styles or imitations often are affectively posted at the opposite end of the very aggro- handed, volume combo-fighting that Westerners can also bring the Thailand (an end of the spectrum we also recoil from), but also see that the "answer" to learning Thai style and effectiveness, in that there may be one, is found somewhere between the two extremes.

There is a sense in which the ultimate principle in Thailand's Muay Thai may be tammachat, naturalness, which is kind of unforced aspect of movement. How you walk down the street is tammachat for you. Westerners can be caught very much in the beautiful of Thai striking, and credit much of that beauty to the physical lines it creates, almost bio-mechanically, but the true inner secret of that beauty is in their tammachat quality. In some sense if you approximate Thai techniques or stylistics without tammachat, you are missing the whole thing. You are doing "drag" in a way.

This may mean that the tammachat version of Thailand's Muay Thai, for non-Thais not raised in the culture, or begun from a young age in the kaimuay, looks and is different than it would be for Thais who have been. There is a tammachat version, but its won't be indistinguishable. That's one reason why I find the Skarbowsky version kind of interesting.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Watching a great young femeu timing kicker being turned into a Muay Maat slugger.

Boxing is built from the center out, and in the footwork of angles. It's about the control of space.

Not from combos on the pads.

Entertainment Muay Thai is impacting even stadium Muay Thai, in the way that Thais even think about what punches are, and what they mean.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Arcane Season 2 Jackpot Arm and Probabilistic Fighting

The following may be counterintuitional, because we often imagine fighters in terms of what they are doing, what they are actively controlling, and don't think about them largely being in nebulous, undetermined states, but the truth is that fights are largely on the edge of the chaotic and unpredictability, and while we can characterize most fighting approaches to bringing as much (favorable) predictability as possible, in the higher levels of fighting it is actually the way that fighters engage with unpredictability, and ride it like a wave. In any one engagement only 2 or 3 dimensions of fighting may be on a fighter's mind, their direct awareness, and how these dimensions arise or express themselves also will not be fully in the fighter's control. There is a degree of dice rolling.

Part of this randomness is addressed through building deep principles within a style, so that unconsciously dimensions of fighting will loosely take care of themselves (solids of footwork, defensive wholeness, ways of moving), but on another register, the mental part of actually fighting the fight involves how you swim through and navigate the disorder of fighting itself, the variable ways things will present themselves, the limited number of things you can actually choose to exert as dimensions of fighting coming to and passing out of the forefront of your mind in a probabilistic space.

Watching the beautifully animated fight scene in season 2, ep 2 where Jinx gives Sevika a new arm, a jackpot arm, which expresses in tech Jinx's own harnessing of randomness, a design of her own creation, makes me think about something I've learned from watching the fights of legends, and Sylvie studying and documenting them. The way that they deal with randomness.

The above are screen caps of Sevika being told to pull the lever, and spin the arm's jackpot combination of powers and effects, most of the scene animated in a Spiderverse style can be seen below.

It gives me to think about these qualities in Golden Age yodmuay, and their relationship to randomness and disorder. We know the phrase "lucky shot", which describes a somewhat unskilled, somewhat even unplanned, overly successful strike. This is a relationship to disorder that I'm not describing. And, with the advancing popularity of the trading of memorized combos over and over, waiting for one to land is also not what I'm discussing.

The jackpot arm in Arcane combines particular effects in changing relationships. In the same way the elevated fighter is fighting with a changing combination of effects, over which she or he does not have full control. Techniques of manipulating space and timing, physical techniques of well thrown strikes, tempo controls, spacing. These are all in a yodmuay combining and recombining as the fight goes on. If you watch closely, yodmuay like Karuhat or Samart (especially in fights they lose, where it becomes more apparent) are constantly finding combinations of principles & execution that aren't lining up perfectly, and so as fighters are constantly only partially effective (Samart vs Wangchannoi is a good one for this, as is his fight vs Dieselnoi...you can see the recombination trying to find a solution in real time). The play with disorder and randomness is not only dealing with the fact that you are not going to be executing everything ideally. Timing, tempo (music), weapon choice, technical execution, defense, positioning (axes), distance (proximity), intensity (power), narrative, are all spinning, and at any particular engagement will line up in an unexpected way (like the jackpot arm). But you keep fighting within your style, applying its principles, and hiding any ill-affects (this is a very important yodmuay skill in Thailand's Muay Thai as well), over time as a good fighter effectiveness will prevail. You don't actually know how or why. It's like the arm, you keep spinning the slots. You aren't comboing over and over, waiting for your opponent to slip and become exposed to a rudimentary shape, its more complex than that. You are applying principles of control, in combination, along with well formed strikes, under the conditions that you cannot fully control how they combine, or how your opponent will be dealing with them. And then, in a round, or in a fight, you may suddenly break through. And when you do it looks like you have been in control most or much of the time. You haven't, but this is the illusion of the yodmuay. And its part of the narrative dimension of Thailand's Muay Thai.

A lot of combo Muay Thai is a much more limited game. Timing is rudimentary, there is a lot of biting down, choosing when to "Go!". Distance is usually just in or out of the pocket (commonly defending oneself with space). Strike selection isn't as variable, as alive and perceptual, as strikes are grouped in pre-set bunches.

In wider selection fighting a fighter is constantly making decisions along a multitude of aspects. In a single attack perhaps only three (like the arm) come to the fore, and the slots spin. A strike may be well formed, moderately timed, but the distance is wrong. You may have chosen the right strike, but you weren't positioned ideally, and its intensity was down. You may be throwing with power, but in the tempo you're at it isn't effective, even though it was well-formed (executed well). Your positioning may be great, and your technique is on-point, but it was the wrong strike. And then, at a certain point 3 factors come together, and they have great effect.

One is using the probablistic nature of fighting, and thinking along these proposed 7 axes or so, rolling through features of an attack, only some of which you can control. The animation brings out this idea some, in part because Jinx is forcing Sevika to fight in Jinx's style, through her tech. Chaotically, to her music. There is something to this in terms of Thai styles and even weapon choices. Thai Techniques have families of variables that surround them, if you use them properly, within their music. You can't just cut out a technique like a body part from a corpse, and Frankenstein it...I mean you can, but you won't be capturing the full family of its effectiveness.

When you come to Thai krus in Thailand in a certain regard you are adopting some of their tech, their style. Things they are teaching you involve a collection of elements that allow you to surf the unpredictability of the fight space. They are saying: Be a little like me (like in Let Me In). This is how to get the most out of great fighters and krus you train with in Thailand, learn to be probabilistically a little like them.

You can see an edited video of the Arcane fight scene here, unfortunately Twitter cuts a minute out of the scene, so you'll have to watch the show to get the fuller meaning of the arm delivery and the discovery of how it works, etc:

See the Scene here

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:20 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

The way that they deal with randomness.

 

I've written before about the probablistic nature of fighting and philosophical theories of the control of entropy, if interested in thinking more about this.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

In Medieval warfare, "knights" (really the rich) fought in battles armored, and trained against the less armored and less trained. In Entertainment fighting, if the sole economic and social motivations are to sell product to tourists (not just fight cards, but also every degree of adventure tourism), then one starts to enter into Medieval states. That is, opponents know their role, if they are just working for the promotion.

One of the curious, ironic things is that the fear of fighting a "Tuk Tuk driver" that followed Thai fighting tourism through the 2010s, those conditions, have quietly and subtly expanded. Thai fighters are understanding the assignment, even in high profile fights.

People worry about fights being thrown in the stadia because of gambling, but there is a growing inequity within Tourism Muay Thai (Muay Thai for entertainment). Muay Thai cannot survive being "fought for the foreigner".

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

some thoughts on the anti-Judo trip history in Muay Thai from today in this thread.

 

Nevertheless from a purely pragmatic point of view I don't see why pushing through should be considered illegal, since it's an effective weapon & disruptor.

This came about because Muay Thai wanted to distinguish itself from Japanese Judo (and probably from anything Japanese). This is one of the more murky aspects of Muay Thai history that likely went through phases, depending on Japanese-Thai relations. When Muay Thai was being modernized in the image of British Boxing (1910-30s) Judo also was popular among the elites. Judo was a very International sport, purposely presenting itself as a modernizing, global art. Thai Royalty taught Judo they had learned in England, and Judo was likely taught in police academies...but between 1930-1950 or so (it seems) that Muay Thai took pains to separate itself out. I may have been the growing power of a large Chinese presence in sport in Bangkok (Japan was a mortal enemy), even though the Chinese were a looked-down-upon ethnicity, or it may have been backlash against the Japanese occupation in WW2, which a lot of Thais recoiled from. But, by the 1970s there was a strong NOT Judo ethic, it seems. In the 1970s as well there was a sense that the Japanese were trying to "steal" Muay Thai with the invention of entertainment Kickboxing, which was connected to Japanese Ultranationalism (Fascism). All this is to say a lot of the best eras of Muay Thai were characterized by not having any dynamics that resembled Judo. This is probably one of the reasons why Thailand Muay Khao and clinch fighting became such an artform in the 1980s and 90s. Grappling was refined in a narrow ruleset, so other principles of control had to be developed. Even basic trips that today are common were not allowed. In the early 2000s the sport started allowing trips, and eventually sweeps. This likely changed Thailand's clinch and Muay Khao style a great deal, favoring locking, bigger fighters, using more power, grappling in ways that warded off trips. It lost some of its sinuous, continuous movement, its complexity.

Such a crackdown, may even prevent sweeping from taking place due to fear of misjudgment.

The crackdown only seems to be notably happening in RWS, probably because its internationalized, and Thais feel like the sport is being represented...and because high profile fighters seemed to be purposely hooking with very blatant trips behind the leg, which is very "Judo". I'm guessing these two things are connected. The crackdown on the one obvious foul has led to pulling the whole ruleset back away from Judo style trips. My guess.

I'm not sure what is going on in the stadia gambling cards, maybe there is some residual enforcement. And I'm not even sure of there is a scoring penalty on RWS (if you ignore the warnings), the ref advisements may just be instructional.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

In Entertainment Muay Thai Thais losing the motivation to be on weight, from this thread discussion Rodtang missing weight. There isn't a concept of fighter "professionalism", something that is an individualistic economic Western concept: As Thais are cut away from their social obligations and traditional sub-culture, treated like free agents, motivations change.

He is making a public apology (which in Thailand is an important move), and in doing so he takes the public face-losing heat off of those, like the head of Jitmuangnon, his family, particular people, who suffer from him missing weight.

But, its not just him. Superlek blew past the agreed upon weight vs Rodtang, for the very same reason. The strings of control, all the traditional social, shame-driven dynamics that make fighters adhere to strict expectations, were being, or had been cut for Superlek. There was no reason at all to be on weight really, other than a modest amount of embarrassment. There's no "Be a professional!" shame for a fighter in Thailand. Instead, Superlek got a significant weight advantage in a big showdown fight (weight advantages in trad Muay Thai are often power play signatures), and beat Rodtang. After losing to Superlek who was what 5 or 6 lbs over (I forget what it was), why in the world would Rodtang kill himself to get on weight again? There are no guardrails. All the social constrictures are gone, and I imagine the purse penalty doesn't matter at all, he already has more financial success than he dreamed of....

...I am only guessing from very basic ideas about Thai relations I have learned in the last decade, as they surround the Muay Thai subculture. My intuition told me that Sor Ae lost face by being forced to continue with the Superlek fight, after an almost absurd miss of weight. In trad Muay Thai if a fighter missed weight like that the opposing gym would just walk away from the fight, insulted (and the fighter's gym would have been VERY shamed by showing no control over their own fighter)..but Chartri or some other factor forced the matchup anyways. Rodtang did the cut, this was really a violation of trad norms. Being forced to be the lighter fighter contains social stigma. Powerful gyms force other gyms to take the disadvantage...so that, including the loss, probably was a big loss of face. I don't know what followed, but maybe Rodtang's easy matchup schedule, which everyone complains about, was to make up for the loss of face?...which doesn't really make up for it. One would think that Sor Ae would just be like: Fuck this! on some level, there's no trad respect. It could very well be that she is on the same page with Rodtang missing weight, or at least being pretty big, realizing that Entertainment Muay Thai is kind of non-professional in the sense that trad Muay Thai is about being exactly ON weight, perhaps in the sense that the promotion didn't treat them well in the Superlek matchup? When you are a powerful gym you tell opponents to give up pounds, not them telling you. There is also probably the sense that the promotion weight bullies Thais all the time, with Western fighters showing up huge, obvious in the ring, being able to cheat the hydration test. Thais have caught onto this. Tawanchai seems to have responded by just getting as big as possible, so he can't be weight bullied. Rodtang may have handled the possible weight bullying issue by remaining in a lower weight class and just missing weight, winning his fights, retaining his belt, taking a 20% haircut. So maybe all of this is just factored in. Rodtang doesn't want to go up and get weight bullied by massive Westerners, and the guardrails that force him to make weight, in the traditional sense, aren't really there. These are just wild speculations, including possible face-saving or status motivations. Rodtang already is extremely famous (this is a big deal and its own reward) and already is wealthy beyond his expectations. What motivation does he have? I do suspect though that the Superlek fight changed attitudes about weight cutting. Again, I have no particular insight or expertise, this is just me thinking about what might be going on. But...the idea that a sense of "professionalism" is going to somehow correct all this seems very, very unlikely. It's not in a Thai fighter's concept space of obligation.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Another sign of the devolving art, spurred by Western example.

Lead hook to the body (liver) from orthodox (or even southpaw) is becoming more common in stadium Muay Thai. This is just something that you couldn't do back in the day because you'd be walking right into someone's power. You'd eat a straight or an elbow (or even a head kick) that might end a fight, because they had eyes to see it. Now, even commonly from out of the pocket, defending yourself with distance, you'll see walk-into lead hooks to the body, unset-up, total disregard for the power they're walking into...because you can. This came from Western combo fighters in the sport. More and more things "work" that go against sound principles, because defensive prowess and eyes are eroding. Counters will not come on time, and will not be accurate. Nothing wrong with setting up a body shot, but just walking into it naked, multiple times, is because defense is leaving the sport. And the more "entertainment" influence the sport gets, the faster defensive capacities will drain away.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

 

Muay Thai is like Ancient Greek, Boxing like Latin.

 

... a related language.

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The process is: Learn to fight with your feet.