Thai Clinch Fighting Vs Wrestling

[Nightshade]

Right now I have the opportunity to work clinch everyday albeit with somebody considerably bigger.  I have some experience doing standup grappling but always in the context of takedowns for submission grappling.  
 

Does anyone have any advice or insight regarding the difference in these two paradigms?  I want to improve my ability to clinch and strike while maintaining a safe and beautiful ruup 

[Nightshade]

Maybe I didn’t communicate this properly.  I’m only doing 10 minutes of clinch and I’m totally exhausted.  I’m trying to use the principles I’ve seen in the library and on Sylvie’s clinch for beginners seminar on YouTube.  The guy I’m clinching with out weighs me by about 75-80 lbs, is it just that weight difference that’s causing such rapid fatigue?  I can successfully move him with the collar tie elbow jamming into his chest.  I do pretty good winning dominant clinches.  But my turns feel very strength based.  Same for my sweeps, they aren’t beautiful timing based sweeps, they’re pulling with muscle sweeps.  Is there a better way of going about this?  I’ve heard drilling clinch is pointless so we’re pretty much going full on and I feel like I am getting better at it but in a fight I know I couldn’t keep this up, I’d get wrecked.  

[trailrun]

75-80lb!! That's an insane difference. It would be very difficult to overcome, even for experienced clinchers. Try to clinch with someone 80lb lighter than you, and you'll get the idea. Being totally exhausted is normal.

Also, who says drilling clinch is pointless? That makes no sense. For reference, see how the Thais drill clinch in the library. See also how Judokas train foot sweeps, such as Deashi-harai.

If you can't find someone your size, you can still think of flow-based (instead of strength-based) drills to do together: "swimming," unbalancing, sweeps from 50/50, etc. You don't have to go full force all the time: you are learning to recognize certain common positions, their counters, counters to the counters, and smooth transitions between these.

The mismatch lb situation is common in BJJ training too. Ask your partner to go technical and not to rely on strength so much in your sessions.

Edited April 14, 2022 by trailrun

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This may help, the set of rules which distinguish Muay Thai clinch and throws from Judo (and some wrestling):

Illegal Throws in Muay Thai – Just What Can’t You Do?

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:16 PM, Nightshade said:

I’m only doing 10 minutes of clinch and I’m totally exhausted.

One of the more difficult things to learn in Thai clinch is relaxation. Getting to leverage positions and controlling those positions with selective tension. It just comes with time. Just as when a surfer new to the board will be tense all over when up on a wave, and an experienced surfer only tense in very particular areas. But clinching someone that much larger to start out with is going to intensify any tension, and exhaust you. Maybe just note how much you are holding your breath, and the areas of your body you are tensing in.

Also, maybe best is not to concentrate on throws or trips, just because these require greater feeling and already a firm knowledge of anchor positions, and trying to trip much larger opponents is advanced and can lead to frustration. Instead think about controlling positions from the inside, and breaking posture a bit, and scoring with knees repeatedly, turning your opponent, etc. Once you are able to control posture, breathe, and manipulate their position more, trips will become more accessible to you.

[Nightshade]

Thanks for responding Kevin and trailrun!
 

I was kinda thinking incorporating more knees would be a really good idea to really make it a Muay Thai clinch situation.  I actually do pretty good giving up weight in BJJ, and it’s pretty much the same idea that Kevin talked about relaxation and selective tension.  It’s the only way you can preserve enough energy to do what you gotta do.  I’m definitely going to take the advice and go easy on the sweeps.  It’s not worth the energy right now.  Turns, knees and proper inside positioning.  

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

@Nightshade Here is also a podcast portion we did on Clinch Transitions:

 

[Joseph Arthur De Gonzo]

I am 230lbs and 6'4" and I've been ragdolled by thais who where at most 165 and like 5'9". And I would always be the first to be tired. 

If you get exhausted it's because you're not relaxing enough and you're not framing enough. When you frame, meaning, you use your bones instead of your muscle to control the space between you and your partner, you should be able to relax. 

Now, throws and sweep will be very hard against someone with that type of size on you. Thais are never able to sweep or throw me in clinch, which is frustrating to them because Thais LOVE to sweep falangs. But they can crank my neck, bring me to the floor and ragdoll me accross the ring enough to make me cry. 

I guess you're partner is taller than you, if that's the case. Work on getting very close to him, getting to neck and cranking the shit out of it. Remember to hold the head high, not the neck, basically where the jewish yamulka is. And work on locking this position and the kind of triangle lock that Sylvie shows in some clips, this is hell for a tall guy. 

Now, if your parnet is a short, stocky, hyper muscular guy, I don't really have any advice. 

[Matty]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:34 AM, Joseph Arthur De Gonzo said:

I guess you're partner is taller than you, if that's the case. Work on getting very close to him, getting to neck and cranking the shit out of it. Remember to hold the head high, not the neck, basically where the jewish yamulka is. And work on locking this position and the kind of triangle lock that Sylvie shows in some clips, this is hell for a tall guy. 

I'm 5' tall - in my experience, if I'm clinching with someone much taller, say 5'9"ish, reaching for the head is impossible.  I just don't have leverage once my hand is on the head.  My arm is too extended.  I usually have to go to body or neck lock.

 

[Joseph Arthur De Gonzo]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:06 AM, Matty said:

neck lock.

 

Neck lock is very good for smaller people indeed. 

[Nightshade]

9 hours ago, timmothysmith01 said:

Thai Clinch fighting is the part of stand-up fighting in which the opponents are grappling in a clinch, generally, the usage of clinch holds. Clinching the opponent can be used to take away the opponent's effective usage of some kicks, punches, and melee guns. The clinch can also be used as a medium to exchange from stand-up fighting to the floor fighting through the use of takedowns, throws, or sweeps. Whereas Wrestling is a frequently floor-based grappling kind of martial artwork wherein the primary aim is to pin your opponent, after taking him/her down.

Thanks for reading my post…