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By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
I'm exploring two aspects of (seeming) spontaneous order (complexity) in Thailand's traditional Muay Thai. At the level of fights themselves there seem to have been a market dynamics in betting customs which drove diversity and escalating skill level, and within the traditional kaimuay there seems to have been an individuation process in training which also escalated skill level and diversity (or at least individualized expression), each of these with not a great deal of Top Down structuring, steering. I'm searching for the nexus between these two "self-organzing" dynamics, which may really be more complimentary, social systems. -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Here is some of the Philosophical discussion background behind the Guitar Parable:Â Â Â -
By Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu · Posted
Here is some private discussion traditional Muay Thai description which helped develop this parable of the Guitar. The challenge, from a philosphical sense, but also from an ethnographic sense, is to explain the diversity and sophistication of technique and style that arises in the Thai kaimuay, without much Top Down instruction. Here appealing to Simondon's theory of Individuation. But...in the Muay Thai (traditional) example, you actually are learning through a communal resonance with your peers, everyone else in the camp.  Through a group memesis.  It's not a direct relationship to the "music" per se, between you as an individual and an "experience"  It's horizontal...  how the person next to you is experiencing/expressing the music  and relating to the authority and the work.  I've compared it to syncing metronomes.  youtu.be/Aaxw4zbULMs?...  the communal form of the kaimuay (camp) brings together a communication of aesthetic, technical excellence, in which there is very little or NO top down direct control or shaping.  young fighters sync up with the communal form, which actually also involves an incredible amount of diversity.  Everyone kicking on a bag in a traditional setting has a DIFFERENT kick, because they haven't been "corrected" from the top down...  But all the kicks in the gym have a kind of sync'd up quality, something that goes beyond a biomechanical consistency.  There is a tremendous Virtual / Actual individuation dynamic that I think you would vibe on.  This is what gives trad Muay Thai so much of its diversity. So much of its expression.  It's because of its horizontal, communal learning through mimesis and a kind of perspective-ism  If you go into a Western Muay Thai gym all the kicks on the bag, from all the students/fighters will be the SAME kick.  With some doing it better or worse, with more "error" or less than others.  In a trad Thai gym all the kicks are different.  ...but, its hard to describe...because they all express some "inner" thing that holds them together.  Maybe the same thing can be seen in other sports, like inner city basketball or favela football/soccer, things that have a kind of "organic" lineage.  They hold together because they are a cultural form that is developed in horizontal context and comparisons with peers (not Top Down), but everyone has their own "game". It is very diverse.  When people try to "export" knowledge from these, let's call them "organic", contexts, processes, not only are things "abstracted" (often biomechanically, traced into fixed patterns), but they are also exported with Top Down authority which channels and exacts "faithfullness" to some isolate quality.  I think this is Deleuze's main issue with Platonism.  The idea that there is a "form" and then "copies" which are more or less faithful.  This, I'd argue, is actually something that prevails in "export" (outside of a developmental milieu), under conditions of abstraction (and perhaps exploitation).  This is the "cut". 6:29 PM    Here is a video where we slow motion filmed the kick of Karuhat, one of the greatest kickers in Thai history.  We not only filmed him, but also Sylvie trying to learn through imitation.  He is the only person who has this kick, in all its individuation.  You cannot get this kick by just imitating it...(in person, Sylvie) or as a user practicing it from the video.  It was developed in a virtuality of the kaimuay, by him.  But, in documenting it...some (SOME!) aspects of it are transmitted forward.  ...its a kick that is very different than many Western versions of the "Thai Kick"  The keys to it are about a feeling, an affect array perhaps, and its uniqueness came out of the shared "metronome" of the traditional gym, the horizontal community of training, which also produced other kicks of the same "family of resemblance" (as Wittgenstein would say)  Ultimately, its preservation is about returning to the instruction of a "feeling"...but also highlighting that the kick itself came out of a mutuality of feeling, and not a Top Down instruction.  It's much closer to something like all the diversity of qualities of different pro surfers, who learned to surf not only one-to-one on individual waves, but in communities of surfers who would all go to one spot, and kind of cross-pollinate, compete in a mutuality (non-formally), steal and borrow from each other, a milieu. Not because there was some kind of Top Down authority of "how to surf" or "what exact techniques to use", or because there was an ideal "form" and a lot of error'd versions of it copying it.  Almost everything that Sylvie produces is Sylvie learning through imitation and FAILING before the living example, because what we are actually documenting is not the Ideal vs the bad copy...but rather the actual, embodied, lived relationship that integrates oneself with another, converging in communication. She is "copying", but that's not really it. It's about syncing up, and the material/psychological relationship between two people, which smooths over the biomechanical "copy", and fills in some of the affects.  But...this mutuality is really also artificial, because its one-to-one, and this isn't how Muay Thai technique is transmitted. It's developed in community. One-to-many. Many-to-one.
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The Latest From Open Topics Forum
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Hi all, Does anyone know of any suppliers for blanks (Plain items to design and print a logo on) that are a good quality? Or put me in the right direction? thanks all  -
The first fight between Poot Lorlek and Posai Sittiboonlert was recently uploaded to youtube. Posai is one of the earliest great Muay Khao fighters and influential to Dieselnoi, but there's very little footage of him. Poot is one of the GOATs and one of Posai's best wins, it's really cool to see how Posai's style looked against another elite fighter. -
By FuckedElbow-Muay · Posted
Yeah, this is certainly possible. Thanks! I just like the idea of a training camp pre-fight because of focus and getting more "locked in".. Do you know of any high level gyms in europe you would recommend? -
You could just pick a high-level gym in a European city, just live and train there for however long you want (a month?). Lots of gyms have morning and evening classes. -
By FuckedElbow-Muay · Posted
Hi, i have a general question concerning Muay-Thai training camps, are there any serious ones in Europe at all? I know there are some for kickboxing in the Netherlands, but that's not interesting to me or what i aim for. I have found some regarding Muay-Thai in google searches, but what iv'e found seem to be only "retreats" with Muay-Thai on a level compareable to fitness-boxing, yoga or mindfullness.. So what i look for, but can't seem to find anywhere, are camps similar to those in Thailand. Grueling, high-intensity workouts with trainers who have actually fought and don't just do this as a hobby/fitness regime. A place where you can actually grow, improve technique and build strength and gas-tank with high intensity, not a vacation... No hate whatsoever to those who do fitness-boxing and attend retreats like these, i just find it VERY ODD that there ain't any training camps like those in Thailand out there, or perhaps i haven't looked good enough?.. Appericiate all responses, thank you!Â
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