The Great 8 of Thailand - The Best Female Fighters in the World

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

With Stamp Fairtex about to fight probably the hardest fight of her career since she fought Loma years ago and bumped her head on the ceiling of "unfightable", it seems like a good time to just take stock in the elite female Muay Thai fighters of Thailand and the orbits in which they are stalled. These are female fighters with hoards of experience, fighting since they were very young, and now find themselves packed with all the things that could make them the best fighters in the world, if they were swept up into elite training programs and promotions. Watching Stamp ascend from what she was, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, maybe a B/B+ local fighter in Chonburi, to a celebrated, and somewhat transformed star by ONE, really calls back to all her sisters in Thailand who indeed were much more celebrated, much more unbeatable than she. There is a sense that the immense talent of female Muay Thai fighters is languishing.

 

Lommanee - One of the most intriguing talents in all of Thailand. A surreal sense of space and distance, she basically Cadillacs through fights (a complement in Thailand), finishing of rounds and score cards, her talents topped with a sweet lead arm elbow. She trains out of Santai Gym now in Chiang Mai, but really her fame came years ago before her current situation when she reached the ranks of the "unfightable". She's fought nobody of elite talent for many years, with fights falling through, or opponents supposedly ducking. As with many top, top Thai females at this stage of their career one never knows how fight ready they are at any particular time. They've been training and fighting since they were kids, developing skills like nowhere else on the planet, but without regular fights or even daily training challenges it can all stagnate dramatically. One of the best female Muay Thai fighters in the world, just sitting there on the shelf. Probably the only person in the world with a winning record against Loma in Muay Thai, who is also on this list.

Sawsing - Could be the most weaponed, and charsimatic fighter of the list. She can fight and dominate at any distance, but above her skill she possesses a kind of fight nobility, a pride and ascendant spirit that is like no other. This is a superstar in waiting, ready to burst onto the world scene, who has been an emblematic star in Thailand since she was maybe 12. She's been shaped by the hardcore Bangkok gym Dejrat and the Old School values of Arjan Surat, there is no female fighter in all the world like her. But, as a mother, and an owner of a gym her attention is divided, and her progress as a fighter in terms of opportunity and training in doubt.

a photo montage of one of Sawsing's 2019 fights, above

Loma - can lay claim to perhaps the best female clinch fighter in the world. She has been a fighting star out of Isaan since a little girl, and she shut the door on Stamp's ascent years ago, defeating her in a big showdown of the "unfightable" ones. Nobody has her sense of timing in the clinch, developed at a very early age. She is on her own level in this. She is now at Tiger Muay Thai in Phuket who took up her sponsorship maybe a year ago (?) helping her transition to MMA where here clinch awareness and sense of counter fighting space pay off dividends, especially against opponents who are not ready for it, and are expecting a Muay Thai star to be a big, powerful "striker". That isn't really her game. She's an elite, elite grappler. Unleashing her on an unsuspecting western talent pool is a little like introducing someone to a fighter with an arm bar game that nobody has really seen. Loma is climbing the ranks at Invicta, and has largely moved out of and away from Muay Thai (I heard she is skipping the IFMAs this year, where she has rung up Gold many times).

Loma, as an Invicta MMA fighter, above

Amp - Amp is maybe best described as The Best Female Fighter in the World that nobody knows. She used to fight Muay Thai under the name "Pizza", finishing up her career with an absolutely dominant performance against much hyped Japanese champion Little Tiger, taking the WPMF World Title (seen below). She then dropped out of Muay Thai (often this is due to contract disputes, but I really don't know) and has been training in BJJ and MMA seriously in the last few years. She blasted back onto the fight scene, for those who were paying attention, by a very unexpected win vs Loma in MMA, beating her at every distance in a rather short fight. While Loma's clinch is a hot knife through butter against most, Amp's solid base and own high-level clinch (not the same skills, but still, accomplished and uncommon) allowed her to neutralize Loma's confident move toward where she expects to rule. I'm sure pretty much everyone who didn't know her was surprised by just how good Amp was. And she might be as good as any female fighter in Thailand, still in her native art of Muay Thai. She also possesses an incredible outward magnetism of confidence that you don't often seen from Thai female fighters, check out the Thai language interview of hers below - you watch her talk, and you just want to see her fight.  She's over at Phuket Top Team when she trains, though I'm not really sure there is a promotional avenue equal to her talents immediately apparent. 

watch this interview with Amp, above

 

watch Amp vs Loma, above

watch Amp's world tile fight vs Little Tiger, above

*I include the fights and interview because of everyone Amp is the most little known in the west, though she very well may be as good or better than anyone on this list

Chommanee - For some time could lay claim to being the best female Muay Thai fighter in the world. She has a beautiful. unorthodox switching style that makes her very hard to read, a master of distance and tempo-change, there is maybe nobody more beautiful to watch when she is on top of her game. Unfortunately she does not train very often (I believe) or maybe very hard. She is almost the epitome of the wasted talent of Muay Thai, just unimaginably loaded with instincts and knowledge, but with no career path forward there is no real program for her to develop her talents further, or even maintain them at the razor sharp level that made her a nightmare to face. She's had several losses on big stages over the last few years, and you can't help but think that this is really due to inactivity, . By the time of their early 20s elite female fighters are often losing or dimming their skills due to inactivity and loss of focus, just when western fighters are finding their feet.

Chommanee, as talented as any female Muay Thai fighter anywhere, anytime - above

Thanonchanok - Like Chommanee an extremely talented fighter, but unlike Chommanee her connections to famed Kaewsamrit gym and the the WPMF organization has kept her fighting for world titles and facing relatively high level talent throughout. She's very likely the most decorated female Muay Thai fighter ever in Thailand, a perennial holder of the WPMF belt through weight classes as she grew. She has great hand, is an artist at managing rounds, and a beautiful demeanor that is tough, stylish and intelligent. Because of her belt opportunities she does regularly cycle back into shape, but there is also is the sense that she is always almost-out-of-shape at any particular time, so you never quite know which fighter you are getting. When at the top of her game as good as any fighter in the world at her weight.

Thanonchanok, perennial WPMF World Title Holder, above

Phetjee Jaa - The great Phetjee Jaa who has faded largely from view. She gained fame fighting and beating boys on television until the government cracked down on those shows calling them inappropriate. Her clinch game, when she was fighting regularly, is the only clinch game that I've ever seen that might be equal to Loma's. But unlike Loma who was largely a counter kick scorer in Muay Thai, she had a complete striking arsenal to go with that clinch attack. Samart told us that she was pretty much the only female fighter he knew of who could really fight. Her family managed her career in maybe something of traveling sideshow way, putting her in show fights with her brother, I'm not even sure of the full nature of some of her wins, and ended up demanding unreasonable fight purse sums when she gained fame. There were accusations that she backed out of proposed Loma showdown fights a few times when both seemed the best at that weight, and then she moved out of Muay Thai and to the Thai National Boxing Team, I suspect motivated to go for the big financial payoff of Olympic Gold. She owned almost all the opponents she faced, many of them ridiculously. She beat Stamp pretty definitively, giving up weight. In fact she would fight up in weight regularly (something not all top fighters would do), but as she bumped her head against opportunity at 16 or 17 it pretty much pushed her out of Muay Thai. Now that she's been developing as a boxer for a few years it might really be that she's the best fighter of the bunch. Combine Olympic hands with a mad teep game, and some of the best clinch fighting females have ever shown, and that may be something like no other...but we may never know. 

above, Phetjee Jaa amateur boxer

Stamp - Stamp is the only fighter of the list who wasn't an elite fighter in Thailand itself, when at the height of her Muay Thai development. She was maybe a B/B+ level fighter in Chonburi before Fairtex picked her up, and it was looking meager before joining Fairtex's brand new MMA fighter program. She had lost to Phetnaree (a solid, rising fighter at the time), and to Phetjee Jaa (who beat Phetnaree for a WPFM title), and it was very unclear where she could go. The reason she is on the list is because more than any other female fighter she received the training and fight promotion opportunity that could expand what she was as a fighter. She was given the space to grow. She gained confidence, aggression, extended the length and ferocity of her combinations, and grew to a new level. It's not really sure how high of a level that is because her ONE victories were not really against elite world talent. Her fight vs Alma is the first step into that proving ground. No matter how it turns out, Stamp is feasting on the kinds of stimulation and growth that one would wish so many other Thai female fighters could see. The fascinating thing about Stamp is that there are 100s of female fighters in Thailand, right now, about at the skill level she was at before taken up by Fairtex. In a way she represents the whole of Thailand potential.

You can watch one of the best Muay Thai documentaries ever made, Todd Kellstein's "Buffalo Girls" which followed Stamp as a young stadium fighter, above

Stamp Fairtex, above

These are really the top tier of great Thai female fighters right now, in varying degrees of semi- or soft-retirement, or inactivity, or passing onto other sports and opportunity. There are others who are just below this tier, fighters like Buakaw (I could have easily replaced Stamp with her as Buakaw indeed passed into "unfightable" status like the others on the Thailand circuit, while Stamp did not, but it felt important to include Stamp, and limit it to 8), Saifaa, Dokmaibaa, Mesa, Nong Biew, Faaseethong, Faa Chiangrai sitting there full of mad talents and skills found nowhere else in the world. The difficulty with almost any fight vs the elite of Thailand is that one is never quite sure how honed the blade is when it enters the ring. In terms of skill-set, fight intuitions and hard-fought ring experience there are no fighters like them on the planet.

I'll probably be editing in and updating this post over time, adding information.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

If interested in this topic you can read my p4p Best Female Fighters in the World Top 10 List made last August, due to be updated.

P4P Top Ten Female Muay Thai Fighters in the World

 

[lisward]

What are your thoughts on the Stamp vs Alma fight? I personally thought Stamp won but many think otherwise.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

2 hours ago, lisward said:

What are your thoughts on the Stamp vs Alma fight? I personally thought Stamp won but many think otherwise.

That was a very painful fight to watch, at a personal level, because I do pull for Stamp and cheer for her. You can make all sorts of technical arguments for who added up the most rounds (points) for either fighter, but a fighter should not win a close fight with the kind of emotional performance Stamp had in that 4th round. She was not gassed, she was defeated and showed it, not even returning to her corner. That was a serious dis-qualifier to me, not her best performance. Hopefully it makes her stronger and she grew from it. Alma won that fight in my book, mostly due to that 4th round, and I suspect that Stamp also felt that in her heart as well. But, unusual decisions is kind of par for the course in the world of fighting. What can you say.

[Jeremy Stewart]

May favourite Aussie girls are Yolanda Schmidt, Sam Brown and Alma Juniko. Maybe a rematch with Yolanda and Chommanee. I think Yolanda is under rated. It would be great to find a big promotion/gymto sponsor these women. There maybe opportunities for them, given the right circumstances, kind of like the early male muay thai fights here in Australia.  In Queensland in particular we took them like fish to water. Everybody wanted to be a Muay Thai fighter. Maybe the same could happen for Thai women. Yolanda Schmidt is my fave by the way.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

21 minutes ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

Maybe a rematch with Yolanda and Chommanee. I think Yolanda is under rated.

Yolanda is seriously underrated, she's beaten both Chommanee and Saifaa 2x. The problem is, these fighters are nowhere near their peak shape or skill-set. I don't think Chommanee trains much at all, to be honest. It's one of the big problems trying to assess the skills of the Thais, they are usually far removed from their best, most focused fighting years when they were much younger, and are not in life situations where they are motivated to get back to them. It's a great accomplishment to beat Chommanee, but she also isn't really "Chommanee" any longer, I fear.

[Jeremy Stewart]

34 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

That was a very painful fight to watch, at a personal level, because I do pull for Stamp and cheer for her. You can make all sorts of technical arguments for who added up the most rounds (points) for either fighter, but a fighter should not win a close fight with the kind of emotional performance Stamp had in that 4th round. She was not gassed, she was defeated and showed it, not even returning to her corner. That was a serious dis-qualifier to me, not her best performance. Hopefully it makes her stronger and she grew from it. Alma won that fight in my book, mostly due to that 4th round, and I suspect that Stamp also felt that in her heart as well. But, unusual decisions is kind of par for the course in the world of fighting. What can you say.

I agree. Alma had broken Stamp. I'm not saying this just because she's from my town. I was worried Stamp would clinch her up. Alma doesn't like that. But she nullified Stamp's attempts really well. I'm a fan of both women. Unusual decisions do indeed happen.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 6/16/2019 at 6:31 PM, Jeremy Stewart said:

I agree. Alma had broken Stamp.

Not to get too much into this, but this is something that happened to Stamp in her last fight, vs Janet Todd, in the 5th round. She was kind of broken by Janet, but she already had too big of a lead in that fight, so survived it. You could see it in the ring when they were waiting for the decision - Stamp looked defeated, Janet not - I discussed it on the Muay Thai Bones podcast. But in this fight it happened in the 4th round, and it was way, way more apparent. It was very evident. I give her credit, she didn't completely collapse, she stood resilient in the 5th throwing get-off-me counters (but hey, that didn't make up for what happened in the 4th. not by a mile for me). This is just an emotional flaw she has as a fighter, and the pressure of fights is bringing it out. All fighters have them, when they come out you can work on them, I hope she will!

On 6/16/2019 at 6:31 PM, Jeremy Stewart said:

I was worried Stamp would clinch her up. Alma doesn't like that.

I've written elsewhere, I think Stamps clinch has been somewhat overrated, I've even overrated her. I think in the media it's maybe because of Loma's incredible skills in the clinch. Stamp is nowhere near Loma, like not even in the same world, in terms of clinch, and truthfully almost zero women, Thai or otherwise, are either. Maybe it's just fashionable to ascribe Loma-like qualities to Thai female fighters? Or, the way the highlights looked from Stamp's first fight for a title in ONE, when she faced someone who looked like they had never clinched in their life, maybe that's where it took root? (When you are ok in clinch, and you face a novice you can look like a magician.) In any case, Janet Todd who doesn't count clinch as a strength (I believe) completely neutralized Stamp, and then Alma did the something close to same, also someone who isn't a big fan of the clinch. That's two moderately skilled clinch fighters who stood up to her in the clinch. I will say that this neutralization, especially in the Alma fight, was GREATLY aided by incredibly fast clinch breaks by the ref. It was K1 style, nearly. The fight was basically kickboxing with elbows. If Alma had been forced to defend in the clinch for longer periods of time as she would have to in a normal Muay Thai fight in Thailand she probably would have gotten into some pretty big trouble. She was taking positions (partially turning herself to her opponent) that are serious no-nos in clinch. (Humorously, the announcers were praising Alma for this.) This alone showed that Stamp is really not an elite clinch fighter in that she was not able to take advantage of this, it's a very bad position. I do believe though that with extended clinch time, without the breaks, it would have eventually have spelled doom for Alma.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Loss of Greatness?

As an addendum, there really is a kind of possible harbinger to the future of female Muay Thai in Thailand, it could be argued that of the 8 great female Muay Thai fighters in the list, only 2 of these are currently fighting top talent AND had become part of the "unfightable" through the sidebet process of producing the countries elite fighters. Stamp, for instance, was not one of the top fighters at her weight in the country before moving to Fairtex, and despite ONE's hype, even today is likely not near the best in Thailand. She would very likely lose in a full rules match to Loma, Lommanee, Phetjee Jaa and Amp, and Thanonchanok would be interesting. Of the rest only Sawsing and Thanonchanok are fairly regularly training, and facing somewhat stiff competition. Lommanee hasn't fought an elite opponent in full rules for maybe 5 years (that I know of). Loma has moved on from full rules Muay Thai, as has Amp. Chommanee hasn't trained regularly at a high level for several years, and is not at her peak. Phetjee Jaa has left full rules Muay Thai for boxing. The best female Muay Thai fighters of Thailand are not really fighting in Muay Thai.

Further, aside from Stamp who wasn't part of the pattern of development, all these fighters were elite when they were 16 or 17, that was when they reached "unbeatable" in the sidebet sense, when they were fighting the most frequently and training most regularly. What is a little worrisome is that despite seemingly better opportunities for Thai female fighters in the country there does not seem to be a current crop of elite Thai female fighters now at 16 years of age. The only one I can think of is Nong Biew who came out of nowhere to take World Titles when she was 15. She became something of a star in the country. But almost everyone on this list is in their 20s. They are beyond their peak Muay Thai years, in terms of the regular Thai development. It could be that the process that developed the brilliance of Loma's clinch or of Chommanee's herky-jerk switching has been disrupted, and that Thailand is moving to an different era. I hope this is not the case, but who are the "unfightable" ones of Thailand now, the 16 to 17 year olds who cannot be beat? There is a very good young fighter that Dejrat gym was training who fought at the larger weight classes on Thai Fight, I've forgotten her name [I'll edit it in when Sylvie gets home - Mongonkaw 《《 edit in]. But I can only think of her and Nong Biew. It means that the next generation of greatness, the next group of 20-24 year olds who then will be no longer at their peak may be greatly reduced. Where is the next Sawsing?

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

Some folks have asked for an update on Phetjee Jaa. There's not much to say, other than that she's now training with the Thai National Boxing Team, travels occasionally for amateur tournaments and generally takes Silver or Bronze in those competitions at 51kg. (She won Silver a few days ago in Japan). So, she's living in Bangkok, training with the National Team. Muay Thai is more or less in her past now. She'll be 18 at the turn of the year this year, I believe.

[threeoaks]

8 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

The Loss of Greatness?

As an addendum, there really is a kind of possible harbinger to the future of female Muay Thai in Thailand, it could be argued that of the 8 great female Muay Thai fighters in the list, only 2 of these are currently fighting top talent AND had become part of the "unfightable" through the sidebet process of producing the countries elite fighters. Stamp, for instance, was not one of the top fighters at her weight in the country before moving to Fairtex, and despite ONE's hype, even today is likely not near the best in Thailand. She would very likely lose in a full rules match to Loma, Lommanee, Phetjee Jaa and Amp, and Thanonchanok would be interesting. Of the rest only Sawsing and Thanonchanok are fairly regularly training, and facing somewhat stiff competition. Lommanee hasn't fought an elite opponent in full rules for maybe 5 years (that I know of). Loma has moved on from full rules Muay Thai, as has Amp. Chommanee hasn't trained regularly at a high level for several years, and is not at her peak. Phetjee Jaa has left full rules Muay Thai for boxing. The best female Muay Thai fighters of Thailand are not really fighting in Muay Thai.

Further, aside from Stamp who wasn't part of the pattern of development, all these fighters were elite when they were 16 or 17, that was when they reached "unbeatable" in the sidebet sense, when they were fighting the most frequently and training most regularly. What is a little worrisome is that despite seemingly better opportunities for Thai female fighters in the country there does not seem to be a current crop of elite Thai female fighters now at 16 years of age. The only one I can think of is Nong Biew who came out of nowhere to take World Titles when she was 15. She became something of a star in the country. But almost everyone on this list is in their 20s. They are beyond their peak Muay Thai years, in terms of the regular Thai development. It could be that the process that developed the brilliance of Loma's clinch or of Chommanee's herky-jerk switching has been disrupted, and that Thailand is moving to an different era. I hope this is not the case, but who are the "unfightable" ones of Thailand now, the 16 to 17 year olds who cannot be beat? There is a very good young fighter that Dejrat gym was training who fought at the larger weight classes on Thai Fight, I've forgotten her name [I'd edit it in when Sylvie gets home]. But I can only think of her and Nong Biew. It means that the next generation of greatness, the next group of 20-24 year olds who then will be no longer at their peak may be greatly reduced. Where is the next Sawsing?

I assume there is no comparable rise of young adult fighters in the bourgeois class...  Does everything depend on this early training?  I would answer the question ‘yes’ (I cannot bear watching swimmers who learned as adults, having started competing at 4).  But if change must happen, how do you see it occurring?  Just the death of the sport for women?  Watering down?  A big avenue for women’s improvement is clearly you guys recording the Masters & interacting with them such that a female fighter is modeled to be as serious, no, more serious than the young men (Sylvie).  This is having a global impact of course with people coming to the summit from all around and studying your archive.  What is the relation of young Thai female fighters to the Masters (male), and to global fighters coming in?  Do you see any future through this synthesis?

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

2 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Does everything depend on this early training?

The short answer to this is yes. In fact, not training. Training and fighting. These fighters are ultra elite because they fought, and fought a lot when young.

4 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

But if change must happen, how do you see it occurring?

I don't know enough about the sidebet sub-system that feeds and grows this top tier talent pool to know if something is fundamentally wrong, and it's not producing the same level of experience and talent. Maybe Muay Thai is just decaying countrywide at that level. I'm not sure. But the solution is just the kinds of female promotions we are trying to create in Chiang Mai. The sport has a still large amount of female participation, well above anywhere else in the world, but it is desperately in need of a secondary financial tier, the chance for Thai female fighters to raise their level. That's behind our efforts in Queens of the North for instance, which we are still working on, a regular, lucrative monthly promotion raising an entire fight scene like that if Chiang Mai, which does not rely as heavily on side bets. 

The other dramatic change would be to open the National Stadia to women. Fighters like Phetjee Jaa, Loma, Lommanee, Sawsing are absolutely capable of fighting at that level, and would dream of fighting there. Female Muay Thai in Thailand, for women, is decapitated in almost every way by this prohibition. Sylvie is also working to change this.

13 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

What is the relation of young Thai female fighters to the Masters (male), and to global fighters coming in? 

There is almost no connection to the masters, though we have thought about doing something systematically, in Queens of the North can be put into action. 

[threeoaks]

8 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

...but it is desperately in need of a secondary financial tier, the chance for Thai female fighters to raise their level. That's behind our efforts in Queens of the North for instance, which we are still working on, a regular, lucrative monthly promotion raising an entire fight scene like that if Chiang Mai, which does not rely as heavily on side bets. 

How is that going?  Is it an annual show?  Are there potential sponsors in Thailand?  What about abroad?  Any massive Western brands trying to get a foothold?  I am thinking about this for myself as well since I am throwing one ladies show but bleeding money; will need sponsor to do it again.

Quote

The other dramatic change would be to open the National Stadia to women. Fighters like Phetjee Jaa, Loma, Lommanee, Sawsing are absolutely capable of fighting at that level, and would dream of fighting there. Female Muay Thai in Thailand, for women, is decapitated in almost every way by this prohibition. Sylvie is also working to change this.

There is almost no connection to the masters, though we have thought about doing something systematically, in Queens of the North can be put into action. 

Can Masters apply leverage to stadia?  Systematization rather than blunt favors?  You must be making such a great (huge) cultural rupture by forging these connections through the library.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

16 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

How is that going?  Is it an annual show?  Are there potential sponsors in Thailand?

It is going well. There are several levels to this. On one level we are just looking for sponsors for a year long monthly show. The sponsorship is important because the whole point is to infuse an already existing scene with structured financial incentive. At another level those there are more comprehensive plans that I believe can change the fate of female Muay Thai in Thailand, and possibly the world. Because we are looking for biggest impact this would require greater cooperation and just getting a few sponsors together. I have a plan that really could radically change things. At that level I think we really need a single, far visioned sponsor, rather than a handful. So I really looking for the right fit. There have been several businesses and people who have said they want to be involved, but not at the visionary level we need. So, right now we're holding out for the ideas that really might change everything. I really believe this could alter the fate of female Muay Thai, and maybe Muay Thai itself.

25 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

What about abroad?  Any massive Western brands trying to get a foothold?

I think this is the answer. The buy in to this would be a drop in the bucket for most advertising budgets of international brands, and the incentives huge. But getting these facts to the right ears is pretty hard to do. These are visionary ideas.

27 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Can Masters apply leverage to stadia?

Not leverage, but they are important parts of a growing narrative.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

47 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

You must be making such a great (huge) cultural rupture by forging these connections through the library.

For me it is like this: modernity will run roughshod over and through traditions. It's just going to steamroll it all. If we who love Muay Thai aren't careful we will be like someone running out of a burning house grabbing only a few things to save. What do we want to save...because it's probably only going to be a few things that will last 20 or 30 years from now. Is what we save going to be the prohibition of women touching the ring (itself a modern invention), or is it going to be the marvelous men and techniques of an era that everyone agrees is the height of the sport. We are close to choosing the wrong thing to save. I believe women, and Thai female fighters in particular, and play instrumental roles in saving some of the most valued, most cherished parts of Muay Thai tradition. In the west we don't understand, nobody really cares or follows the reasoning of the bottom rope. Kaensak, a legend of the sport, thought Sylvie was joking when she told him to hold her mongkol in Thailand, so she could go under the bottom rope. We are saving the wrong things, and losing the important things.

As to female fighting in the country, I take an ecological view. The female fighters of Thailand are the best there have ever been. It's a martial art, fighting art resource. We need to think ecologically about how to protect, and even grow that resource. If we do it can be a Ganges to female fighting all over the world.

[threeoaks]

2 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

 

I think this is the answer. The buy in to this would be a drop in the bucket for most advertising budgets of international brands, and the incentives huge. But getting these facts to the right ears is pretty hard to do. These are visionary ideas.

http://manufacturingmap.nikeinc.com/#

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

6 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

http://manufacturingmap.nikeinc.com/#

I'm not entirely sure I understand. The problem is speaking to the right person, the person who actually has her/his hand on a lever, and the kind of freedom and flexibility to exercise vision. There are not a lot of people like this is most companies. If you aren't talking to the right people you are just wasting your time, unfortunately! I have a very good feeling about this though. I can intuit that it's going to break open in a very good way.

[threeoaks]

18 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm not entirely sure I understand. The problem is speaking to the right person, the person who actually has her/his hand on a lever, and the kind of freedom and flexibility to exercise vision. There are not a lot of people like this is most companies. If you aren't talking to the right people you are just wasting your time, unfortunately! I have a very good feeling about this though. I can intuit that it's going to break open in a very good way.

Of course and I have no contacts.  Glad you see a way forward.  I’m a fan of how Nike is handling themselves in the US (Colin K Jersey etc).  Someone there has an advanced vision.  Will watch how you do this happily.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Looks like Lommanee may be moving from the inactive to the active list. Super talent, but this is maybe the first full rules Muay Thai fight she's fought against top talent in over 5 years. With everything like this I'm still guessing this fight has a 50/50 chance of actually happening, but if it does it is a marvelous match up. The world of female Muay Thai needs Lommanee fighting.

[LengLeng]

On 6/17/2019 at 9:29 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm not entirely sure I understand. The problem is speaking to the right person, the person who actually has her/his hand on a lever, and the kind of freedom and flexibility to exercise vision. There are not a lot of people like this is most companies. If you aren't talking to the right people you are just wasting your time, unfortunately! I have a very good feeling about this though. I can intuit that it's going to break open in a very good way.

I'm following this with interest. So your aim is to create financial incentives in Thailand for gyms to invest in female fighters? And your strategy would be a fight promotion that a)involves prize money and b) gives these fighters exposure?

Who do you need to convince here? Companies/sponsors who see the potential? Or the current stakeholders in the fight scene? 

Is there a regulatory body that needs to get involved as well? Meaning the pushback or reluctance to invest in female fighters, where does it stem from in your view? Traditions? Limited opportunities? Rules and regulations?

I feel that Thai people are always supportive of things that make them internationally recognized, that if a thai athlete gets fame overseas they welcome him/her with open arms. So having a thai female superstar fighter abroad might change things at home? (...like Stamp). Imagine a female Buakaw I mean..

Also what about int muay thai federation? Do they have any driving power in Thailand? 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

5 hours ago, LengLeng said:

I'm following this with interest. So your aim is to create financial incentives in Thailand for gyms to invest in female fighters? And your strategy would be a fight promotion that a)involves prize money and b) gives these fighters exposure?

I wrote in some depth about this here, on Patreon:

The Fight Card to Change All Fight Cards | Thailand

We actually put this card on and it was incredible. The card was a test-run proof-of-concept for a promotion that would run for a year, monthly. It isn't designed so much for exposure as the main goal, but that would eventually be the result. It is about raising the level of Muay Thai for a giant, already engaged community of female fighters, the biggest in the world. Traditionally it was a sidebet scene that drove the elite level of female fighting, like those produced in the original post in the original post of this thread. This is about creating a systemic supplementation to that process, especially in need because that process seems to be weakening.

There is an important adjacent series of plans that go along with the promotion that I believe would lift the entire project to a completely different level, and have impact possibly across the globe, but I won't go into those here.

5 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Who do you need to convince here? Companies/sponsors who see the potential? Or the current stakeholders in the fight scene? 

In Thailand money speaks. Honestly, if we had the money right now it would already be happening. Once we set the tone and started the process lots of stake holders would buy in very quickly. We have great contacts in this area. For the more comprehensive approach - and I'm really holding on for the more comprehensive idea - there would require more (wider) stakeholder involvement, Thais can be factional and competitive in a community or commercial space, and part of this would be about resolving that, and letting benefits flow to differing stakeholders. I don't think this will be a challenge.

5 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Is there a regulatory body that needs to get involved as well? Meaning the pushback or reluctance to invest in female fighters, where does it stem from in your view?

We have good relations with possible regulatory bodies. It isn't a problem. The investment issue is simply one of vision. Nobody is thinking on this scale, this ecologically. It's so much a resistance, as there just not being pattern of this kind of investment and planning. The plan is incredible, but it honestly is about getting it to the right ears.

 

5 hours ago, LengLeng said:

So having a thai female superstar fighter abroad might change things at home?

Yes, there is a lot of "superstar" thinking in Thailand. This is really about taking care of and feeding an entire community of Muay Thai development, not finding a superstar. It's a rising tide approach. But, genuinely, if you raised the tide of the largest female fighting community in the world, you would end up producing superstars with international opportunity.

[LengLeng]

11 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Yes, there is a lot of "superstar" thinking in Thailand. This is really about taking care of and feeding an entire community of Muay Thai development, not finding a superstar. It's a rising tide approach. But, genuinely, if you raised the tide of the largest female fighting community in the world, you would end up producing superstars with international opportunity.

Thanks a lot for this elaboration. It sounds extremely exciting and I hope you get the right ears to talk to. I assume this would also involve non-thai female fighters fighting in Thailand? 

From my personal experience in the bangkok fitness community, there seems to be a lot of excitement for female strength and women starting to like the idea of having a muscular body beyond ab definition. that in combination with muay thai fitness being popular among the thai middle and upper classes might be helpful driving factors. 

From an international perspective I think the issues of sexism, the bottom rope, women not being able to fight at national stadiums combined with the child labour issue might be problematic. But that might not matter in this case anyway.  

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

26 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

I assume this would also involve non-thai female fighters fighting in Thailand? 

There is great emphasis, in Muay Thai promotion, on the westerner vs Thai match up. It is a kind of commercial "must do". This promotion really isn't designed to go that way. Which isn't to say that there would be zero westerners, Sylvie would probably be on these cards because we'd have to be there anyway helping produce the shows, but the emphasis or point of them would not be westerners vs Thais. It really is about getting the most Thais the most opportunity, and impacting the community over time. That means most of the match ups, in fact almost all of them, would be Thai vs Thai.

Thank you for your co-thinking on this. The more minds on concert, the more likely change like this is possible!

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

46 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

From my personal experience in the bangkok fitness community, there seems to be a lot of excitement for female strength and women starting to like the idea of having a muscular body beyond ab definition. that in combination with muay thai fitness being popular among the thai middle and upper classes might be helpful driving factors. 

From an international perspective I think the issues of sexism, the bottom rope, women not being able to fight at national stadiums combined with the child labour issue might be problematic. But that might not matter in this case anyway.  

The nice thing about the approach we have in mind is that it really isn't audience dependent. It would simply be a matter of putting on a show, 12x a year, and making impact on the Muay Thai scene through fight bonuses. The material support for such shows already exist, female fights happen every every night of the week in Chiang Mai, often at multiple stadia. The ecosystem for the shows is there and thriving. So while involvement and even enthusiasm from people not in the community, whether broadly from across Thailand, and internationally definitely helps, or would be an aim, there is no risk in not having it. The promotion is it's own little box of events and influences. It's part of a larger care system for the already existing female fight scene in the city. Sponsors, or ideally "a" sponsor, would be investing in that system, that community, as a mode of branding. It has a "can't fail" aspect, especially since the buy-in would be so low. Most promotional efforts in Thailand are very short-sighted, people are thinking "How can I make money?!" instead of "How can I change and improve the entire thing?" For that reason they are often imagining: How do I make it bigger?! Which ends up with it being not very big, ironically enough.

[LengLeng]

10 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

 Most promotional efforts in Thailand are very short-sighted, people are thinking "How can I make money?!" instead of "How can I change and improve the entire thing?" For that reason they are often imagining: How do I make it bigger?! Which ends up with it being not very big, ironically enough.

I agree. Which I off topic think is so fascinating as it stands in stark contrast to how muay thai is taught/learnt in Thailand (referring to your thread discussing the western preferred structural approach to learning). The Asian region has some of the smartest people in the world, yet China for example is in need of engineers from the west and international companies in India hire graphic designers from the west, both these phenomenons because although a craft or profession can be mastered perfectly, the creative problem-solving aspect and holistic approach are many times not there. Perhaps due to more authoritarian teaching systems in school. (really not trying to be offensive here). Anyhow drifting off. 

Eager to hear more about this as it progresses, I think it sounds really awesome.