The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai

[Jeremy Stewart]

32 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Maybe we are getting somewhere as to the original question of the OP. Does a Martial Craft become a Martial Art simply when it passes into the hands of the Rich?

And even more problematically, is this the case with all crafts and arts?

You smashed it with that one. Craft (as in trade) in my opinion is utilitarian in nature, neither beautiful nor ugly, but extremely useful. Once a craft becomes within the purview of the rich it changes it's essence. I love that term, martial craft. I've never been a  big fan of the term martial art and have only really used it for convenience.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

Once a craft becomes within the purview of the rich it changes it's essence. I love that term, martial craft.

Speaking to everyone reading this thread, there is a very good book on Craft, and what is lost in a society when we lose craft:

The Craftsman <<<

Whether we are talking about craft beer, or craft woodworking, there is something very vital here. Muay Thai is craft fighting.

 

[Bad Seed]

"Rich kids dont fight" -Bernard Hopkins

 

On the art/craft thing, I often suspected the term martial arts came from someone just rendering the Latin term ars martialis into English, which should probably be translated more like warcraft. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

11 hours ago, Bad Seed said:

I often suspected the term martial arts came from someone just rendering the Latin term ars martialis into English, which should probably be translated more like warcraft. 

Could be, but some "tradtional" martial artists were literal artists, such as in the Sword and The Brush philosophy, and the warrior/poet traditions, where the refinement of the warrior included the refinement of the man, not to mention the rise of the Budo philosophy (self-cultivation) in early 20th century Japan. If it was a mis-translation it fit with many Japanese ideas about what we call martial arts.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Ran into this little bit of history in support of the role of the rich in Martial Arts, much like Karate in Japan, Brazilian Jiu jitsu was initially (?) only taught to the wealthy in Rio, as told by Jean Jacques Machado, up unto the 1980s or 1990s:

 

[Oliver]

That whole weirdness with Anderson Silva towards Demian Maia during the fight in Abu Dhabi? Apparently that's what that was all about.

[AndyMaBobs]

There's a reason that boxing has been dominated by Black and Latin Americans in the states, and it's the same reason it was dominated by Jewish Americans in the 30s-40s. Same goes for the best Japanese fighters in karate/judo come from run down parts of Tokyo and Osaka. The rougher a neighbourhood you grow up in, the more likely getting into fights doesn't scare you, especially if you were the sort of kid who looked for trouble or hung with a bad crowd. 

The best example of this I can think of is Dagestan, which is probably the most dominant area in sports. This tiny part of Russia of 3 million people have not only dominated wrestling and sambo at the olympics and other international competition while representing Russia, but plenty of countries have Dagestani's who medalled for them. Which is insane, they are still a minority in terms of participants in wrestling, but have probably the biggest amount of medals proportionate to their size. I don't think it's a coincidence that they are also in one of the roughest, parts of the world, where every day has the threat of terrorism and/or war. 

While there are probably some, I can't really think off the top of my head any Muay Thai, MMA or boxing fighters in the UK who have come from an affluent area like Central or West London, Brighton etc. There are some, I'm sure, but I can name many from East and South London, Manchester, Leeds, etc.  You generally don't take up getting hit in the face as your career unless it seems like a great opportunity for you, and if you come from a wealthier background, or have more job opportunity surrounding you, you're going to go for that.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

1 hour ago, AndyMaBobs said:

There's a reason that boxing has been dominated by Black and Latin Americans in the states, and it's the same reason it was dominated by Jewish Americans in the 30s-40s. Same goes for the best Japanese fighters in karate/judo come from run down parts of Tokyo and Osaka. The rougher a neighbourhood you grow up in, the more likely getting into fights doesn't scare you, especially if you were the sort of kid who looked for trouble or hung with a bad crowd. 

Yes, that's the usual theory. But Karate developed among the rich in Japan. And apparently BJJ developed among the rich in Brazil, at least in many of its formative stages. The Gracie schools, by Machado's telling, where all in the wealthy neighborhoods. It seems that the rich provide pathways for a martial art or fighting art's development. In Thailand it is similar. Yes, great fighters throughout the decades came from the countryside, but there is also a royal "Bangkok" tradition of the keeper of the flame, often in conjunction with military or policing developments.

[AndyMaBobs]

18 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Yes, that's the usual theory. But Karate developed among the rich in Japan. And apparently BJJ developed among the rich in Brazil, at least in many of its formative stages. The Gracie schools, by Machado's telling, where all in the wealthy neighborhoods. It seems that the rich provide pathways for a martial art or fighting art's development. In Thailand it is similar. Yes, great fighters throughout the decades came from the countryside, but there is also a royal "Bangkok" tradition of the keeper of the flame, often in conjunction with military or policing developments.

Yeah that's all fairly standard no matter where you go. Same as with boxing with promoters, the rich people come and watch the poor people fight. That financial backing necessary to promote and give a martial art exposure is quite hard to do for working class people. Muay Thai was brought to the UK by well off guys who didn't really know Muay Thai. As Anderson Silva would say 'is normal'

[Oliver]

So you could say Judo and Sambo in the former Soviet Union, very well state funded and were the military and police martial arts for the officer class. 

[AndyMaBobs]

5 hours ago, Oliver said:

So you could say Judo and Sambo in the former Soviet Union, very well state funded and were the military and police martial arts for the officer class. 

Another very good example!

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This very interesting description of how the legalization of Caipoeira in Brazil was linked the teaching of the art to the more affluent, turning into a "Martial Art" in the Asian model. This is roughly the same 1920s-1930s time frame when Okinawa Karate was first taught to affluent university students in Japan. Even at the time, there was a strong cultural identity issue at play, notably among Brazilian intellectuals:

Mexican capoeira is not diasporic! – On glocalization, migration and the North-South divideAuthor: David Sebastian Contreras Islas