Jump to content

There Are No More Great Muay Thai Teachers in the World - Sifu McInnes


Recommended Posts

I just wanted to relate to everyone part of a conversation we were having with Sifu McInnes in Pattaya when filming with him for the Library. I think the conversation will make the session cut, but I'm not sure. We were talking about the loss of the Golden Age techniques, something Sylvie and I talk about frequently. The part that she and I emphasize is that the great fighters of the Golden Age are no longer in the fight game. They find themselves outside of gyms, many of them no longer involved in Muay Thai at all. Not only are the techniques being lost, but the men of that age, their personalities, their knowledge depth, also are being lost. Sifu though had a different point. He has the perspective of someone who was super active in Lumpinee fighting in the Golden Age. He was close to Arjan Yodthong of Sityodtong, in fact Sifu says that he built his house next to the gym at the time, so close was their working relationship. He said for a decade he traveled the road to Lumpinee with Arjan Yodthong, week after week. His point though was not that the great fighters are no longer in Muay Thai, but that its the great coaches who made those fighters are no longer in Muay Thai. Of course Arjan Yodthong who made an incredible number of champions sadly passed away, but Sifu said that many others have died as well. In fact he challenged us to name a single legendary Muay Thai teacher who is still strongly connected to producing stadium fighters. We thought for a minute and could only come up with Arjan Surat of Dejrat Gym. But Sifu objected. Arjan Surat was a young man then, when the Golden Age was happening. That is not the generation he was referring to. It's the generation that was before. That was the generation which actually produced the legends of the Golden Age. And, as we both agreed, it is irrevocably lost because the entire system that made those great instructors, the Yodthongs of Thailand, is gone, the entire feeding system to Bangkok is heavily altered, radically changed. The quality of instruction, even at top Thai gyms, is no longer what it was in those days, Sifu claimed. He said that he would sit in Lumpinee with legendary coaches and they would just make money hand over fist following their bets. They could see which fighter was going, and in what round. He said that kind of knowledge, all the infinite perceptions are gone. It's a great session, so much in it technically, but that conversation will stay with me. With the Library we are trying to save the techniques, the Muay, and something of the men who fought so brilliantly in those decades, but Sifu reminded me that the ecological loss is even more than that. It's of the generation before them, the men of Muay Thai who were shapers of that greatness we all look back on.

Some stills from the session (you can follow my photography on Instagram)

 

Sylvie and Sifu-2.jpg

Sylvie and Sifu footwork.jpg

Sylvie and Sifu dojo.jpg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's interesting to me that when you talk to fighters of that era, they blame gambling. Or Karuhat blaming the lack of charisma in modern fighters, no personality to be superstars. He's a fighter, blaming fighters. And Sifu, he's a teacher blaming teachers - or a loss of teachers, really. It's interesting to me that these men are putting the blame in their own wheelhouses. When we suggested to General Tunwakom and Sirimongkol (both in their 70s) that the Golden Era displayed some very old techniques - IN THE RING - both of them said that the trainers of those fighters were too old to have really done much teaching. But, I can attest that sitting in a chair and waving a stick at a distance, you can learn a lot of technique. Sifu made a brilliant point when he suggested that the loss of Arjan - of the men with the real technical knowledge and skillset to disseminate it - had resulted in padmen replacing them as teachers. Padmen were labor; they still are, but now they're also the krus.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Sylvie_vonD said:

It's interesting to me that when you talk to fighters of that era, they blame gambling. Or Karuhat blaming the lack of charisma in modern fighters, no personality to be superstars. He's a fighter, blaming fighters. And Sifu, he's a teacher blaming teachers - or a loss of teachers, really. It's interesting to me that these men are putting the blame in their own wheelhouses. When we suggested to General Tunwakom and Sirimongkol (both in their 70s) that the Golden Era displayed some very old techniques - IN THE RING - both of them said that the trainers of those fighters were too old to have really done much teaching. But, I can attest that sitting in a chair and waving a stick at a distance, you can learn a lot of technique. Sifu made a brilliant point when he suggested that the loss of Arjan - of the men with the real technical knowledge and skillset to disseminate it - had resulted in padmen replacing them as teachers. Padmen were labor; they still are, but now they're also the krus.

I think how and who we blame shows our focus. Id probably focus on the coaches and teachers too since thats my focus. Whats interesting to me is who Karuhat blames considering he is now a teacher, you can see his focus. Hes still a fighter at heart. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, James Poidog said:

I think how and who we blame shows our focus. Id probably focus on the coaches and teachers too since thats my focus. Whats interesting to me is who Karuhat blames considering he is now a teacher, you can see his focus. Hes still a fighter at heart. 

You are completely right! His teaching style is almost entirely through sparring, and correction in sparring. He described to Sylvie how when he was in the gym as a fighter he would always be working on moves or deceptions that would catch his sparring partners off guard. He thought to himself that if he could fool someone who knew him well he could easily fool or mistime an opponent. It led to him developing one of the most unique fighting styles of the Golden Age. When he is teaching sylvie in all those sessions he is still doing this. We see him regularly invent throws, for instance, that we've never seen before, ever. And as he's showing the throw if you pay attention you'll see that he's working on it, inventing it right there before your eyes, just as he would do as a fighter.

Now, this is the really interesting thing as to the topic. We have to admit that the entire ecosystem that produced these coaches, and all these fighters, it's gone, like the Amazon rain forest might one day be gone, but new ways of teaching and creating techniques are growing now. Fighters are communication their experiences. Rambaa just the other day was literally teaching Sylvie Karuhat's switching style, impersonating Karuhat, asking her if she knew who Karuhat was (???!), something he had stolen and made his own from videos. And...he's teaching this stuff to the Thai boys who are dreaming of becoming stadium fighters! So there is creativity! 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I don't think Karuhat considers himself a teacher, even though he definitely takes pride in his students. I think his approach is very much like being a senior in a gym, who can raise the younger fighters up but doesn't necessarily assume a formal role. This might be a part of how modern gyms are different from back in his day though. You'd have a single superstar come out of a gym, like Karuhat, Sakmongkol, Santiennoi, etc. These guys weren't from gyms with tons of champions. But then there were a few gyms with lots of them, like Sityodthong, Nongkeepahuyut, Hapalang, just to name a few. Nowdays you have gyms that buy up ALL the stars and they all train together, pulling them out of their smaller gyms where they could be raising others up. But they do carve each other, in these "show horse stables," I guess.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Kaitlin Rose Young said:

Kaensak's trainer (Kru Kimyu) still comes through Dejrat on occasion. It's been a while since I've seen him though. He can barely walk but will prop himself on the ropes and hold pads for fighters. He has to have 20 years on Ajarn Surat. 

kensaekimyu.jpg

Very good catch! He, amazingly, also was Pi Nu's trainer (Sylvie's Kru in Pattaya). He used to travel in a circuit back in the day and would come and train the Petchrungruang boys regularly when he would be in Pattaya. Sounds as if he was a kind of traveling Arjan. He was training one of the greatest fighters of the generation (Kaensak in Bangkok), and also some boys in a small, family gym in Pattya? And how many others? As a side note, so out of sheer coincidence Sylvie's ended up training under two of his students, both Kaesak who was her trainer in NJ before she moved to Thailand, and Kru Nu now, which is such an unexpected, accidental lineage. What is interesting, if I have the story right, when Kru Nu's son Bank was starting to make waves last year at Lumpinee Kru Kimyu offered to come and help train him for an upcoming fight, if he could make it, but it never came to fruition because of his health/age. So we are really on the cusp of Kru Kimyu ending his influence on fighters. Sylvie says though that he's come over to Bank's corner in two recent important Lumpinee fights, so he's hanging out at Lumpinee. (Edit to add: It's also kind of beautiful and amazing to see this subterrainian connection between two gyms, Dejrat Gym and Petchrungruang Gym, two gyms you would never from the outside connect. There is a thin teaching line in Kru Kimyu, and also now in Sylvie there is a student line as well, as Arjan Surat has been a heavy influence on her. It's in the fabric of relationships.)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Is Somat Hong Sakoun still around at all? I'm sure he doesn't train anyone anymore but the article I saw about jocky gym said he was one of the biggest technicians of the 60's. I don't know how old he is but would probably be really interesting to talk to. 

  • Like 1
  • Respect 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • Deleuze, Guattari and the Machinic The "combo" or even "the strike", as it lives in the Western conception, would benefit from understanding the machine from a D&G perspective...from the excellent chapter "What is the Body Without Organs? Machine and Organism in Deleuze and Guattari" by Dan Smith. found here: What is the body without organs_ Machine and organism in Deleuze and Guattari.pdf << pdf  
    • The West vs Thailand The more I think about it - and I've thought about it a lot - the huge difference between most combat sport conceptions in the West vs Thailand's Muay Thai is The Burst vs The Continuity. Short Wave vs Long Wave...with the exception perhaps of Western Boxing, which has a tremendous history of long wave fighting. With the advent of the "combo" (which helps people who are not fluent, teach and disseminate) and of the "highlight" (which increasingly becomes the narrative lens through which fighting is digested and understood), The Burst concept has accelerated...to everyone's detriment.
    • The clinch battle, and the wonderfully reffed rounds, in Chatchainoi's win (on channel 7) gives trad rules hope. https://www.watchlakorn.in/มวยไทย7สีวันที่22ธันวาคม2567-video-445579   I put up the best round here:  
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own.  2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season.  One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
    • Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. 
    • If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works.
    • Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!   
    • Have you looked at venum elite 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.2k
×
×
  • Create New...