Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu

Well, this is the truly fascinating thing about this question. I'm a Westerner too. My thoughts are like this. I think that the reason many of us (Westerners) are drawn to Muay Thai, especially the Muay Thai of Thailand, is that it forms a kind of critique of Western values. The "exotic" appeal of it really points to deeper differences that underlie. Once we get over the exotic quality, and even the beauty of it, there are likely critical differences in culture, a way in which Muay Thai critiques the West, and this includes the way children are viewed both in society and as fighters. It isn't to say that the unspoken critique of the West from traditional Muay Thai is right, but it does suggest for us that are drawn to it that something about this critique is informing and powerful. The West isn't the only thing that can critique. The East can critique the West as well. Now the question of Thais seeing things ethically aligned to your way, this too is such a complex idea. One assumes that most of this ethical agreement comes from a position of (mostly urban) middle class, towards a rural, agrarian lower classes. We know that it is not just the fighting of children as workers that is objected to by middle and upper class Thais. Middle class Thais also enroll their children in Taekwondo classes, steering clear of their National sport, notably because Muay Thai itself is read as socially "low". Children in Taekwondo classes (and there is one filled with Thai children just 5 minutes from Phetjee Jaa's gym here in Pataya, which blows my mind) get nicely pressed white uniforms, and nice clean belts, and not real contact. There is nothing dirty about it. If we took the social ethics of those parents as our guidepost of what is right and wrong about Muay Thai we would be turning our noses up at probably 99% of the Muay Thai in the country. Of course there are other Thais that find other valuable objections, including the general progression of generations. We see this in the Petchrungruang gym. Pi Nu watched his family ox as a kid, as a young fighter. Now he has achieved middle class status and his son lives a much more comfortable life, as a young Lumpinee fighter who loves video games and fights only when he wants to. Pi Nu does not want his son to have the life he had. He wants a better life. But, as a Westerner, someone who has lived through the consequences of Western values over time, I wonder: is he also ready for his son to have less obligation to him when he is an old man, than he has for his own father (who lives in the house)? Are we all ready for a Thailand where old age homes multiply, and the aged live alone in the birth of a more western individualism? In so many ways this is just the tide of capitalism and social change, but what I don't want to lose track of is how our love of Muay Thai is teaching us something about the West, a West that Thailand is being pulled towards, with good consequences and bad. In terms of children not having to fight for money, I think we know that if money was not involved Muay Thai would not be the same at all. It's the string that if pulled would unravel the whole sweater. It's the motivation behind the set up of almost every fight in the country, from the smallest festival fight by a wat to a televised King's Birthday match. The gambling of money (the symbolic residue of luck and karma) is essential to Muay Thai culture. It the syntax of its language I suspect. There's a great interview with Pi Dit of the Giatbundit Gym in Buriram which talks about many interesting things, but what struck me is how he says that the fighters of today simply can't touch the fighters of yesterday: "I work with young fighters now, and some of them show a lot of promise. This new generation of fighters, though, can't touch the fighters of the previous generation. It's not because modern fighters aren't talented, but because most of them are not as hard-working. They don't have to be. Back then, it was so much harder to do anything related to Muay Thai. It was harder to find fights, harder to find someone to train you. The ones who fought at high levels were completely focused. No one could afford to half-ass it. Out here, fights were so hard to find that only the most dedicated would end up fighting and earning money. Only the best of the best, the ones with real passion, ever went anywhere." When he says that the fighters of today can't touch the fighters of previous generations is he talking about poverty, is he not? Or at least the pressures of a lack of wealth. Whether we like it or not fighting as an art comes out of difficulty, out of pressure, out of strain. It is very, very hard to say that strain is a good thing, ethically. It feels wrong to say it. But I also think that sometimes as ethicists we think about problems as if we have a god's eye view on them, as systems that we can just intercede in like a mechanic looking at a car engine that won't start. We want to find the (ethically) faulty part and replace it. But life and culture isn't like that. I'm more of the position that I want to find out: Why does Muay Thai speak to me so powerfully? What is it about it that is so unearthly? What is Muay Thai saying, critically, about my own culture? And why, when I see the children fighters at the gym, children who fight for money, do I see a place where I would want to raise our kid, if we ever had one? No. We don't want children fighting for food, but I think maybe that is different than children fighting for money, money bet, money gambled. I think we in the West, a money culture, have a very hard time thinking about how money is perceived in other cultures, and how children are perceived as well.

this is transposed from a Facebook conversation Niamh, hope you don't mind me sharing my own thoughts. There are some big ideas here, but I think part of the problem when discussing these things from a western perspective is that we privilege our own position. No one can doubt that oppressive poverty is an ill, but there are fundamental values that grew out of class economics that help define a society or people, that give meaning to life and become culture. It's very difficult to just "cut out" the bad from the outside, and then try to leave the good. One of the most fundamental differences we've encountered in Thai society, with the west, is the way that monetary exchange is thought of. Generally, in the west we take a financial exchange to be the nullification of obligation between two parties. We each got what we wanted, we are "even" - nobody owes anybody anything. This produces a highly atomized view of the world, with strong individualistic expectations. In Thailand at it's varied roots, and probably throughout SEA, the financial exchange is the BEGINNING of obligation, the signal that we are, as families (of one kind or another), now investing in each other. This difference produces lots of miscommunication. The problem with thinking about child fighting from a western perspective is that we are seeing these children as "workers", antonymous agents, who are unfairly and prematurely being put into dangerous work, for their parents. This is far from the projections of innocence that we in the contemporary west place on childhood (Victorian Ideal) - in the west we largely try to insure that childhood is extended as long as possible, and if wealthy enough, we try to extend it well into adulthood. Working for others is seen as the end of innocence and delight. This is also pretty far from the concepts of care and merit that surround the meanings of financial obligations between family members or even connected parties. Of course there are lots of unjust circumstances where these obligations are not paid by some, and others are taken advantage of. This is abuse. But I'm not sure that the atomized, individualistic concept of work and freed obligation is the most meaningful road forward either. In the west while we celebrate our freedoms and autonomy, our bonds with family are weakening. Our aged parents end up living alone, in isolation, or in "homes", because we have an eroding obligation to them, so that we can live out our more antonymous lives. While we in the west are so drawn to the quiet beauty of very high levels of the Muay Thai fighting art - so balanced, so calm, so "brutal" - we are also quick to pull at all the cultural strings that have worked to bring it about. The truth is our own societies (western) could not come up with such an art. Having children and youths fighting for fun (with head gear on, and elbow pads for fear of law suits), in clubs or in school simply would produce what we already have - mall martial arts, imitations of older, Asian arts. We are drawn to Muay Thai in Thailand because it expresses something incredibly different, a beauty that tells us something I think that our own values could not get us to, even if they tried.

Sounds like Japanese scoring is an amalgam - maybe even a perfect amalgam (?) - of Thai and Western scoring.

Sylvie's Thai isn't fluent, and Sangwean her father is not the most logically minded person I've met. When presented with a contraction I imagine he would just not see it, or shrug. Sylvie might have a different opinion, as she talks directly to him a great deal. The reason is simple. It's bad luck. It is both logical, and not.

Then this is a HUGE difference. For instance in the Little Tiger vs Faa Chiang Rai fight I could see that a western style judge (or a Japanese judge, now) could give Little Tiger points for being the advancing, striking fighter. But Faa Chiang Rai is fighting under a different assumption. She is fighting a Thai style fight. She is countering with kicks above the waist, not a lot, but enough to establish a point lead, and then she is just spinning the rest of the fight, defending that lead. I'm sure she was shocked she lost, it shows on her face. The big surprise, at least for me, is that this was in Thailand. The go out on your shield attitude is appreciated in Thai scoring, but ONLY if you establish dominance. If you become the chaser and you do not catch and punish you then can be read as desperate. Instead Thais (generally) esteem calm, grace under pressure. This creates real problems when Thais and westerners (or Japanese, I assume) fight. A Thai might very well be happy to let an opponent chase them. It's part of the game. But outside of Thai scoring that opponent might be gaining points for aggression, for showing "heart". Basically two fighters can be fighting different fights, under different assumptions. Little Tiger may advance because this is "good". Her Thai opponent, like Faa, might retreat, because this is good. Each fighter assumes that the other is in a deficit. Of course the big problem with this is that if you don't realize you are behind, you can't make possible adjustments to win. There are Thai fighters who fight advancing, and Sylvie does this 100%, but when you fight like that you are assumed to be behind, generally. You have to catch and punish your opponent. If the fight stays balanced, you can usually lose.

I love the history of Little Tiger Charlie. Things I could never know. A big fan of hers, though I haven't seen enough fights to make a solid judgement. Her technique is beautiful. As to throwing a lot of kicks, yes, these things score in Thai scoring too, but she throws a lot of low kicks and these are not really points in Thai scoring, unless they start to distort the opponent. Thai scoring, if you do not know, is also not round by round. The first two rounds really don't score except in context. It is all about progression. But in Thai scoring punching is devalued, unless it becomes effective. Kicks score more or less whether they have effect or not, as long as they are above the waist, if I had to generalize. Let me ask, and this could be a big difference. In Thailand the fighter going backwards is often seen as in the lead, defending their lead. In Japan is the Japanese fighter seen as the leader because they are the aggressor (as in Western fighting)? The way a retreating fighter is judged (generally) is a big miscommunication between Thai vs westerner fights. How do they regard that in Japan?

There are a few things that make me wonder whether it is Japanese owned. For instance it seems that when Thai girls go and fight there, and are clinch fighters, they seem to be prone to losing, with judging being done in a kind of non-Thai way (we know that Japanese female fighters tend to be poor in the clinch). It suggests that in Japan there is a more Japanese-fighter style bias in judging? Thais are pretty nationalistic, and still sore at kickboxing being stolen from them (some may say) it's hard to believe that a Thai organization would have so many Japanese champions in their national sport. They would find a way to stack the deck, I assume. But perhaps it is a business-first model, and they make money from Japanese followers. It could explain why there are WPMF Japanese country champions. I don't remember the WPMF having any other country champions, not even WPMF Thailand champions (perhaps I am wrong?) I also found it curious, though it is a different organization, that Little Tiger came to Thailand to fight Faa Chiang Rai who seemed to win that fight in a very "Thai" style WBC International belt fight, but the decision was awarded to Little Tiger, on Thai soil. Faa fought that fight in a text-book backwards fighting Thai femur way, perhaps you would disagree. That felt oddly political, as if Little Tiger was being protected, which isn't a suprise as she's a high profile champion, except that it was in Thailand. Faa Chiang Rai seemed to come out of nowhere to fight her (we knew who she was). But now Faa Chiang Rai is the 2nd ranked WPMF Miniflyweight, a weight class that is actually above her natural weight class, she is very small, putting her out of Little Tiger's weight category. So odd. It seems somehow that Japanese female Muay Thai fighters are a bit favored by the bodies at large. Not to say I don't love them, and love seeing Japanese fighters getting shine. It's just a feeling one gets. The fights between Little Tiger and Pizza are another curious example (though I never saw their fight in Japan). Pizza kind of destroyed Little Tiger in Thailand (WMC I think), after losing to her in Japan a few months before. Just owned her in the clinch. Little Tiger drew with Sosci (Italian), another clinch fighter, in Japan, when it would seem that she would probably have a big clinch advantage. Because so many of these fights are unseen, it's hard to tell, but the WPMF has a very strong Japanese flavor at times.

I find this stuff endlessly interesting. So much happens far away and seemingly behind closed doors. Can you tell me Charlie, is the WPMF Japanese owned? Or Thai? Do you have any idea?

Amazingly, it even applies to infants. I remember when we first came to Phetjee Jaa's gym (before where it stands now), and there was a woman visiting with a small baby. I forget what made it happen but suddenly the baby was being handed over the ropes to someone inside. Now this gym was basically nobody but Jee Jaa, her brother, her mother and father and the occasional visitor. They in fact slept under the ring. It basically was their home. But Sangwean jumped in alarm asking if the infant was a girl or a boy. As Sylvie mentioned, the same division of women and the ring is the same exact thing that keeps Phetjee Jaa from fighting at Lumpinee, we've seen him (and her) shake his head about that and how unfair it is. But then he enforces a very strong, conservative stance even down to infants. We have seen Jee Jaa sneak between ropes though, when nobody (her father) isn't looking. :ninja:

Hi Charlie, btw I love all the work you do, I follow you through Sylvie. The WPMF seems to do a lot of "Interim" World Championship titles in Thailand, which seems to mean that they just want to have a belt fight among top fighters, as a promotion for the show.. I'm not even sure of the status of these titles. I assume though that when the real belt is itself up for grabs that it would be between the top two ranked fighters. Honestly though, I've not seen many WPMF belts change hands. But recently Tanonchanok, who had held the Light Flyweight belt for more than 2 years just fought and lost it to Kwankao LukKlongtan who I think was the number 1 challenger at the time. It seems odd to have a Thai champion fly to Japan to fight the 4th ranked challenger when the 1st ranked challenger is a Thai in Thailand. But really anything can be expected. That's why I ask if it was for the championship belt, I wasn't sure. If so, interesting that Duwandawnoy has to defend her belt so fast after Tanonchanok held onto it for a very long time without fighting much. It does feel like the WPMF is getting itself together a bit, trying to get their titles updated.

So this is for the title Charlie? Duwandawnoy just won the belt and now faces the 4th ranked competitor?

I loved reading this review as I could really feel you Kay, your values, your person. And I got to see Sinbi in a new light. I could feel that beach, the combination of sweet relaxation and 4 hours of hard work each day. This is the amazing thing about gyms in Thailand. Not only can gyms change so much even over a few months, but personal expectations, and differences between people produce wildly different experiences. Back in September Sylvie actually recommended Sinbi to someone she didn't know on Twitter because of its reputation for training women - you can see the tweets here - but then the experience was far from expectation. In fact Michelle had such a negative experience she ended up taking a hit financially and flying up to Pattaya to train with Sylvie. She wrote about it here Disappointments and Falling in Love Again. Both experiences are quite real, right? I think the biggest key is getting your expectations in line with the way things are going to be, and figuring out what you are hoping for. It's a little like the question "What college should I go to?" You can be right next to someone having the time of their life, and be miserable. Or the opposite.

Hey Matt, I don't train, but I do watch very closely. Master Toddy's is a kind of an amazing place. You walk in and you think you are in an old Run Run Shaw movie set. You see a class of almost all westerners, and you think "Hey, this isn't going be very real." But Master Toddy is an incredible force of personality and mind. I was shocked at how hands-on he is in classes (which are not very large). He's developed a system of progressive drilling that is brilliant (Sylvie stole a few things for her own workouts after one session there). And he has a great eye for what needs improvement. But the biggest thing about Master Toddy is his enthusiasm. Thais are, as a whole, extremely uncomplimentary. Mostly they'll just push you through work and at best nod. But Master Toddy has a unique gift. He can instill confidence. What he says, and how he says it, from afar might feel cheesy (thinking back to his tv persona), but in real life, right there in front of you, it gives a blast of belief. I'm surprised at how effective it is, I saw it immediately infuse Sylvie with confidence. There are of course many different Muay Thai experiences to be had in Thailand, and its safe to say that none of them are like training at Master Toddy's. Master Toddy is just incredibly unique. I can see how some people wouldn't like it - it doesn't match up with boot camp fantasies of Thailand - but for some people it's golden. The "Thai way" of teaching is actually to just put you on a bag and let you figure it out for yourself, amid 100s and 1000s of repetitions. Very little instruction or correction. Master Toddy offers a different way of accessing Muay Thai. It would make a very interesting first stop in a trip that aims at seeing several gyms and fighting a few times.

When I say this is an amazing Thai soap opera there has to be a qualifier. Thai soaps are notoriously unwatchable, at least for me. Full of huge Thai stereotypes, silliness, sound effects, and at times offensive forced sex (rape) scenes, big rambling drama, they really push the patience meter, even when in Thailand there may be nothing else on TV. We don't watch them. But for us we kept running into this one which seems brand new, and were shocked to see Muay Thai being portrayed as a central theme in the soap. When we found it on we watched for few minutes, if only as a kind of observer, to see what stereotypes would surround pop culture, soap portrayals of Muay Thai. It wasn't until we sat down and binge watched 3 episodes that we found all kinds of pleasure (and information) in this innocent soap. We actually found ourselves laughing, repeatedly, at the portrayals (that were meant to be funny), and the surrounding story lines, as best we could follow. The plots are not complicated, and even though I had the aid of Sylvie jumping in, I think I could follow them despite having almost zero Thai myself. Whether it would be worth it for you, I don't know. Our 3 years here may have softened my resistance to some of these portrayals, and made watching things in a language I don't understand enjoyable, but I found it both hilarious (slapstick style, and I'm not a fan of slapstick) and oddly illuminating. As far as I can tell the story follows Phet, a young man who is the lead in his family's Likay troop. Likay (lee-kay) is a traditional form of Thai Folk Theater (this Bangkok post article fills in some details). Phet, through circuitous events finds himself wanting to join a Muay Thai camp (all of this in Isaan?) which is run by several women. The most prominent female is Pim, who also seems to be the star fighter of the camp. The title of the soap is Likay - Matsang (Folk Theater - Directed Fist), and it balances a tension between Phet's traditional dance theater troop - and its attendant (effeminate) almost boy-band masculinity - and the Kai Muay which is run by women. The camp emphasizes female fighters to a surprising degree. The stereotypes abound, and much is being said about Thai masculinity, of course in endless silliness. Also, the portrayals of the camp, with the men all training in clean shirts and discordantly in white sneakers (is it transgressively low class to see men hitting bags topless?), create a kind of Muay Thai fantasy space, that is half a cleaned-up Bangkok upper middle class, and half low-class and provincial mash up. Muay Thai figureheads like Khaosai Galaxy and Somrak appear in it, and the adventures are off the charts mad cap at times - the razing camp shower scene, leading to a near naked run through the camp at night has to be seen to be laughed at. But if you are someone who loves all things Muay Thai, and loves all things Thailand, I can't help but feel that at the very least it deserves peak. One of the more interesting things is the lead character of Pim, who could have stepped out of the Sud Suay Muay Thai campaign, aimed at making Muay Thai much more amenable to the middle class, and in particular middle class Thai young women. Her position and experience as fighter (and she fights two ridiculous fights in the first few episodes against a giant opponent named "moo daeng") gives her a strength, aggression and confidence in social situations which does not seem to have to be balanced by overly "feminine" qualities. Not knowing Thai to check her language, she seems like a woman who is just empowered by her fighting and Muay Thai, which makes for an interesting case of public image making. I'm not completely sure what the juxtaposition of Likay and Muay Thai is supposed to serve, but I am sure that it has resonance. Muay Thai and traditional dance performance (like lakhon) actually hold a very long history together, going back hundreds of years, each performed for royalty in celebrations. And now both Muay Thai and Likay performances can be found in the same festivals that countlessly dot the countryside and serve as the bed of Muay Thai in Thailand. And it isn't just in Thailand. Hong Kong Kung Fu cinema (1970s) was born out of the acrobatics and storytelling of Chinese Peking Opera as well. Fighting and dance go together, as any Ram Muay will tell you. You can find all the updated Likay Matsang episodes here streaming. Episode 1 Episode 2 Episode 3 Episode 4 Episode 5 This is the first part of the first episode. If you can get through this you'll be more entertained later.

Always good to see these drills and how instructors teach elements.