Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Here is the fight video between Rena and Erika Kamimura. They were two of the most popular fighters in Japan. There was some pretty big build up to this fight. Before the fight, the build-up was the subject of almost all of the combat magazines in Japan. Erika had previously knocked Rena down several times in an exhibition and after subtle jabs at each other the fight finally occurred in Erika's promotion, Rise.

The fight was semi-controversial because of the point deductions and ref's breaking up of the clinch.

Just wanted to share the fight and see how you guys score it.

 

Round 3:

Round 4:

Round 5:

  • Like 1
Posted

 

The fight was semi-controversial because of the point deductions and ref's breaking up of the clinch.

Just wanted to share the fight and see how you guys score it.

 

Wow, what an interesting fight. Round 1 Erika looked so beautiful. She's so comfortable with her hands, do you know if she had a boxing background? Her spacing, her footwork, just wonderful. But then Rena figures out that Erika doesn't do so well going backwards. In fact she looks average if she doesn't have her space and her forward lean, which surprised me. But a lot of fighters don't do well going backwards. The first two rounds hold so much promise for this fight. Will Erika adjust and be the forward fighter? But I haven't a clue what happens after that. This isn't Muay Thai rules is it? At first it seems like low-clinch isn't allowed, and Erika suffers for it. But then as the fight progresses it seems that NO clinch is allowed. So both fighters clinch without actually locking arms, and its ridiculous. It turns into a mess. I can't help but feel that under full Muay Thai rules Erika wins this fight, but that's on minimal evidence from the first 2 rounds. I don't know the meaning of the yellow and red cards. Did both fighters get a red card in the end?

I will say that I was so distracted by the clinch, no-clinch business I had a hard time scoring this fight on first viewing. Because Erika couldn't clinch she couldn't capitalize on closing with punches and she ended up looking very sloppy. Not her fault, but how it turned out. That sloppiness in my more Thai sensitive eye made her look like the less composed fighter to me, and Rena the more in control. But as you say that Japanese scoring rewards  the out-on-your-shield fighter, and that was Erika. Bottom line, even though I was pulling for Erika (in fact I like both fighters), Rena seemed more composed, and okay as the winner, but I have feeling I could probably watch it again and count landed blows and feel that Erika scored a lot more. My Thai lean I feel compulsed to give it to Rena for some reason, but that isn't even knowing what the cards mean, or even what was going on with the rules.

Posted

They clinch non-sense really ruined the fight. Both fighters seemed to be engaging in clinch work, so the ref should have let them do it, instead he became obsessed with breaking it up the second it started.

Initially, Erika is given a yellow card for clinching. Then Rena and Erika are both given yellow cards for clinching, as a result, Erika's upgrades to a red card and she is deducted a point. This was the turning moment of the fight in my opinion as Rena realized that if she tied Erika up it would stop Erika from moving forward and if there was a penalty it would likely be given to both fighters. With Erika down a point already, this could never really hurt her. If she miss judged it would simply nullify the deduction. Her strategy paid off as the ref then became obsessed with breaking up the clinch but no longer penalizing.

The lead up to this fight was pretty interesting. Rena had been absent due to injury and was pressured to come back and fight for the Shoot Boxing title before she was 100% and they changed the rules, which she was not used to. She lost the fight, then right before the Erika fight she lost to Jessica Penne (from UFC). Her injury was lingering and would require additional surgeries to heal. On top of that Erika embarrassed Rena at a Shoot Boxing event. Shoot Boxing is Rena's home promotion, and the two fought an "exhibition". It turned into a real fight with Erika knocking Rena down twice. This all led to an extremely frustrated Rena who told people that she would retire if she lost to Erika.

A couple of months after the fight, I had the opportunity to speak to Erika and Rena about it. Some Japanese media commented on how strange the officiating had been, so I asked Erika about it. She agreed that the officiating was very strange, but didn't want to talk about it beyond that. In a separate conversation with Rena, Rena talked about how extremely frustrated she had been with her injury and Shoot Boxing not giving her time to let it heal. (I believe her ankle was broken)

There is a lot of strange stuff going on in the background of this fight and there were major implications for both fighters and their respective promotions, which has led to speculation.

I think it's a close fight, which would have been a great fight had the ref let the two fight. Based on what you've said, with Erika pursuing her, I can see how in Thai style scoring Rena would have the edge. In Japanese style, it would have been a draw, which it was before the deductions came into play.

I just think its an interesting fight, with all of the background and the fight itself. During my time in Japan it was the most promoted women's fight I could remember. Possibly more than any men's fight. It was on the cover of magazines, there was a tv special, it was a big deal.

Oh and she comes from a karate background actually. Erika did Karate with her father and grew up watching the famous kickboxer Masato.

  • Like 1
Posted

I just think its an interesting fight, with all of the background and the fight itself. During my time in Japan it was the most promoted women's fight I could remember. Possibly more than any men's fight. It was on the cover of magazines, there was a tv special, it was a big deal.

Oh and she comes from a karate background actually. Erika did Karate with her father and grew up watching the famous kickboxer Masato.

 

So many compelling things. Most Karate styles keep their hands low, do they not? I'm just pretty amazed at her comfort guard, and footwork. I love hearing about the backgrounds of these fighters and the events surrounding fights. There just isn't a lot out there. So is the thought that the promotion for some reason fixed the fight for Rena with these ridiculous clinch breaks? Are there actual rules against clinching? I mean, when these cards are shown is it supposedly understood what they are for?

I also don't have a very clear timeline of Erika's career. Did she ever really recover from this fight? How long after this fight was it that she retired?

Posted

With as much as Shoot Boxing had to lose if Rena lost, people have contemplated such. 

Erika never recovered. The fight was supposed to be her crowing moment. Rise, her promotion, created the title for the fight. She fought a couple more times, but was never the same.

She wanted a rematch with Rena but Rena forfeit the title. So Erika entered a Girl's S-Cup that Rena was in, but Erika was royally sandbagged. It became evident that a rematch would never happen. (Not because of Rena but because of Shoot Boxing)

In addition a close friend and training partner of hers, who was ko'd right before her fight with Rena, was forced to retired due to brain trauma, and I think that effected her a lot as well. Her other friend she trained with moved to America.

Erika was notorious for anxiety and stress problems, had suffered permanent injuries, and without the motivation seemed to lose all desire to continue on, for what I imagine was not a lot of money. A doctor told her that hard training would make her injuries worse, so she chose to retire.

  • Like 1
Posted

Erika never recovered. The fight was supposed to be her crowing moment. Rise, her promotion, created the title for the fight. She fought a couple more times, but was never the same.

 

When she breaks down and cries at the end of that last round, backstage, it is heartbreaking. This fight, the fight that never really was. Wow. Has Rena retired?

  • Like 1
Posted

This is absolutely amazing, Charlie - thank you so much for sharing this. I love, LOVE, Erika and RENA but in such a way that seeing them fight each other was a totally bizarre cheering experience, with me pulling for both fighters back and forth.

I'll admit that I almost never have a full grasp of what's going on in fights in Japan with the variation in rules (or in Europe for that matter) but this one was particularly strange with the yellow and red cards; especially with each fighter getting both cards, so it seemed like a point was deducted from both? But ultimately I agreed with the decision. If it were scored on a calculator, Erika wins on points and stronger strikes (those left kicks!), but watching the fight Thai style, where the scoring is the narrative of the fight, there was something about RENA's ability to snuff Erika's flurries over and over, especially in that last round, was definitive.

Agreed with Kevin though; seeing Erika break down backstage after that fight put a little dent in my heart.

  • Like 1
Posted

Wow. Has Rena retired?

 

No she is performing better than ever. This fight reenergized her but she still had to overcome her foot/ankle injury. The year following this fight she competed at the Girl's S-Cup and won, despite still being injured. She had several operations and a year after that Girl's S-Cup she returned, back to full health.

People forget that she is only 23. In my opinion she looks better than ever. Plus she's had a very positive effect. Shoot Boxing's promotion of her has allowed for other women to enter the organization and become popular. They've recently started promoting the 48kg division for women. They've also started promoting a slightly heavier 53.5kg division. The 48kg division was created for Rena's training partner Mio, but was somewhat taken over last year by Mizuki Inoue's training partner Yukari Yamaguchi (age 16). Whereas the 53.5 was created with Rena's old rival Ai Takahashi in mind but was taken over by Mizuki Inoue (age 20). So Shoot Boxing has never looked better for women to compete in. 

Here is her final fight from last year's Girl's S-Cup

Here is the thai fighter's prior fight:

The fans really enjoyed watching Ticha fight and I'd like to see her get invited back for this years tournament. I've always liked the tournament, it reminds me of Bloodsport or the Quest with fighters being invited from all around the world for a one day tournament.

Posted

 

Agreed with Kevin though; seeing Erika break down backstage after that fight put a little dent in my heart.

 

Having watched the little documentary, it really does make you feel for her.

Posted

Rena is amazing though. I saw her fight in Rikix in Japan, it's not just that she's good, she has an amazing presence and she really is a star. She walked out like a champion. This is very important as so many women seem to be meek and even more so in Japan. She sets a great precedent for everyone. Also she has amazing fight hair.

  • Like 2

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • Whatever one's position on the future of Thailand's Muay Thai, its hard to deny that many of the arguments for the unstoppable - but sometimes delayed - "evolution" of the sport, it's imagined "potential" being reached through globalization and hoped-for mass popularity, it's provincial/parochial (or corrupt) nature being technologically "modernized" and rationalized, mirror the justification reasonings behind colonialism, which held a concept of beneficent, educating husbandry and willful, well-rewarded participants in the culture. This is not to say that they are the same, we are in a different time in history, but only that the ethical questions about colonialism likely need to also be answered in this case, where "development" by powerful outside forces and interests is assumed as an unproblematic Good.
    • This is aside from the worrisome corrosive effect of replacing extremely knowledgeable, deeply invested in-stadium fans with phone scrolling tourists who know very little about the sport or what is going on in the ring. A sport (and art) in a certain sense cannot survive at a high level of performance with such a huge in-stadium fan disparity. Audience will over time shape the product...when it becomes a "product". This is one of the quagmires of a consumerist approach. 
    • Reflecting on it, I think these are my three main objections - or at least points of constructive criticism - towards some of the globalizing efforts on Thailand's Muay Thai: 1. Changing the rules and very form of the sport so that Westerners (and other non-Thais) will win fights that they otherwise would have lost. (This goes from changing weigh-in rules to down-regulating primary Thai skills - defensive counter fighting, narrative control, clinch, etc - that non-Thais just are not good at.) 2. Decaying the once vast small kaimuay/festival culture of provincial Muay Thai which created such diversity and complexity of skillsets in Thailand historically AND radically altering the developmental training methods of Thais. Both of these lead to Thai fighters just becoming less and less skilled, and more in line with a Western/International baseline. 3. Changing the ethos of Muay Thai fighting. Moving it from a sport that fundamentally expresses control to a sport that expresses violence.   The first of these puts a thumb on the scale that gives the illusion that Western/International fighters are much better than they are. This is great for International marketing. And the second of these reinforces that illusion because it drains the Thai standard of greatness that gives Muay Thai its allure in the first place. If Thais become less skilled, again International fighters will win more fights. The primary motivator and promise of the "Magical" or untouchable fighter of Thailand becomes lost, an image that ironically enough has been essential to Soft Power. The third of these is maybe the most troubling, or at least harder to see and pernicious. In order to align Thailand's Muay Thai with Global appetites it must move towards expressing similar values that combat fight culture expresses in global capitalism, which is that of transgressive violence. The very foundational value of control-in-the-face-of-possible-violence that generated such high level fighters of Thailand, which gave it its aura in the world, becomes culturally colonized; it is replaced by a lower value of entertainment violence (which over time produces much less complex or fluent skill sets). Prescriptively, one would maybe list: 1. Try to take the thumb off the scale for International fighters. Now that they have been skewed for start sliding the sport back towards complexity and higher level skills. 2. Protect and nurture the kaimuay/festival grassroots of Muay Thai, the small gym networks and fighting circuits that develop rich skillsets. AND, preserve or return to aspects of traditional training practices, because higher level skills were embedded in these practices.  3. Pull back on the valorization of violence or aggression for its own sake, and embrace the uniqueness of control in the face of violence, extol "gep awut" for instance. This unlocks the greater levels of skill which will give Thailand enduring value in the world.    I could mention as well, this is really core to the persistent debate about youth fighting in Thailand. From an Internationalist perspective because fighting is fundamentally violence, it is inherently transgressive and "adult". Because fighting in Thailand's history is NOT fundamentally violence, but instead is about mastery and control (quite complexly developed, including the use of aggression, but not fundamentally so), it is not inherently adult. In fact, it is an inculcative practice, a practice of maturation that aligns with the process of becoming adult, possessing control. One reason why Thai fighters have been so sublimely skilled is that they grew up within a process of developmental control over oneself and threatened violence. An art counter to violence as it is commonly conceived in a fundamental way. If we change the spectrum of this valuation, not only are the highest level skill sets threatened to be lost, but also the valuable lesson that Thailand's culture has for the world will fall away. Ideally, the key to long term Soft Power for Thailand has to be founded on the uniqueness of Thailand's perspective on fighting and fight culture. This is what brings people across 1,000s of miles and causes them to invest their lives in the specialness of the art. And this comes out of the valuation of what fighting itself means and the incredibly high level of skill that was developed in that value, come out of the root-system of provincial fighting.
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • Private Girls From Your City - No Selfie - Anonymous Cacual Dating https://Cupidon.Top [url=https://Cupidon.Top] Private Girls From Your Town [/url] - Anonymous Casual Dating - No Selfie NEW GIRLS [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/chloe-ziva-49.html]Chloe Ziva[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/lola-la-fleur-11.html]Lola La Fleur[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/suki-82.html]Suki[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/hillary-is-wet-13.html]Hillary is WET[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/bamby-belle-104.html]Bamby Belle[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/luminatria-29.html]Luminatria[/url] [url=https://Cupidon.Top/girl/anna-cute-fox-114.html]Anna Cute fox[/url]
    • That sounds promising if you've already moved, how are things going for you now? 
    • I'm sorry I don't really know. Sylvie is in touch with a collector and this person is where she buys hers, but there are not multiple copies available. Maybe someone else would know of a larger source.
    • Where can I find some physical old Muay Thai magazines? I am located in Bangkok. Thanks
    • I can only comment on Perth. There's a very active Muay Thai scene here - regular shows. Plenty of gyms across the city with Thai trainers. All gyms offer trial classes so you can try a few out before committing . Direct flights to Bangkok and Phuket as well. Would you be coming over on a working holiday visa? Loads of work around Western Australia at the moment. 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.7k
×
×
  • Create New...