Journaling - Readings, Muay Thai, Concepts and Articulations

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Origins of Muay Thai Clinch Fighting Through Indianization

Bookmarking for later. Southeast Asia went through an extensive Indianization period, a 1,000 years (?), in which much of the royal court structure of governance, and Hinduism (the Buddhism) established itself in mainland SEA. It has been broadly likened to perhaps the Romanization of Europe. Aspects of the Indian caste system also established themselves. What has been little discussed (that I have seen) is the likely martial arts influence from India. Things like Thailand's Muay Thai and its Khmer and South China precursors are not really discussed, historically, in the contest of an Indianizing influence (even though quite late in this), in Ayuthaya, the Siam King had a personal guard of 200 Persian/Indian warriors.

I don't have much to say on that, but for a while now I imagined that the wrestling portion of Siam's Muay Thai likely came from this very old influence from India. The oldest sport versions of Muay Thai (gambled) include the mention of wrestling.

Things of note:

• Hanuman was famed for being a great wrestler in the Ramayana, and was even homaged to by wrestlers of India.
• The Indianized orgins of Thailand's royal structure, the sacred gods of Hinduism, if wrestling too was part of this cultural heritage, puts Thai clinch/wrestling in line with some of the highest forms of Siamese/Thai culture.
• There is a Burmese Indian form of wrestling (which more clearly marks out this influence). One wonders if some of the anti-wrestling Muay Thai rulesets that are often (rightly) described as anti-Judo (Japanese), could also be anti-Burmese in origin (a traditionally hated National enemy).

Wikis to look up:

 

In the Burmese state of Rhakine a form wrestling that is traditionally practices in the rural villages, and fought in festivals (sounds familiar). It has long been my thesis that sport Muay Thai developed in parallel lineages, one at the level of the Capital or civic centers of Kingdoms, with royal (and formal martial) auspices, but another at the level of the populaces, in festival rites of contest and social organization (gambled).

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

On 11/25/2024 at 2:38 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Now, this is a little complicated in Thailand because in terms of Thais bigger name gyms actually buy their cupcakes already made. They buy them baked. They might put them through an additional process, develop them some, but mostly they were made elsewhere, by other processes. Their core skill sets, sense of timing, eyes, defensive prowess have already been "made". If its an Entertainment Muay Thai oriented gym they may now be training combos much more (added on top of their core skills), or hitting the gym for strength. If in trad shows the fighters may just be more tuning up and staying in shape and sharp. As someone coming long term to Thailand you probably, on the other hand, really want to get into the deeper processes themselves, which may not be where big name fighters are. There could be very good training around big name fighters, but it isn't likely developmental training, the thing that makes the cupcakes. For that you need to see Thai kids and teens.

This point I was making about big gyms in Thailand with top active names, was also recently made by Gilbert Areanas when talking about Bronny (LeBron's son) training with LeBron.

""I don't wanna learn from a 40-year-old... I'm not learning what got the 40-year-old to his 40th year. I wanna see what LeBron was doing his first year."

 

Even Thais at 23-25 are very developed and experienced "vets" of the sport, and are likely training very differently than how they trained as rising fighters, becoming the fighters they are.

 

Also of note, a lot of older Thais are very drawn to Western "modern" training, if only because it is so different from what they have been doing for years, which frankly they see as boring. It also can keep them from having to grind, which mentally can be fatiguing. "Modernity" as its own allure in Thailand gyms, but does not necessarily make the best fighters.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

It was a pretty beautiful thing to watch Sylvie box yesterday, learning how to chase the Thai femeu fighter (something she's mastered in Muay Thai), at a completely different distance, under different rules. Unable to close and clinch she actually ended up getting caught in a defensive clinch, not having the Duran techniques of punching with arm control, it was just such a special thing. When you isolate like this, holes come to the fore. Everything is that 6-18 inches that pretty much every female (and many male) Muay Thai fighters ignore. Some combo through them, but its just a huge blindspot in everyone. Boxing happens in that blindspot, which is why (if you aren't just memorized combo-ing), you need eyes, and feeling feet. Sylvie has spent so much time fighting huge opponents, multiple weight classes up, she has a very strong instinct to brace for shots, to freeze. Boxing does not allow this, which is beautiful. The sport opens up, like an analytic, upon female Muay Thai, and for Sylvie origami unfolds a huge potential of being able to see and feel in those 6'-18", unlike almost every other fighter.

It was very cool to see up on the rope. And, it was very cool to see her putting it on her in the 3rd and 4th rounds, her fighter's instinct coming on.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Enjoyed watching Petchneung's grit. First fight of his I've enjoyed (not everyone's style is for everyone). Went to another country, walked through all the beatings. I could feel his heart. Hard to absorb that kind of loss at 19, but his toughness means a lot.

Kinda ridiculous that the Raja belt lives in Japan, or even that non-Thais fight each other for the belt, but we are in a new era of promotional Muay Thai.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

This is very cool beautiful stuff, because athletes are always wrestling with the narrative of who they are, what they achieved, and the biggest story is the one you tell yourself. Kwame afraid because he didn't make the most of himself. Everyone's story is a real and beautiful one, make it real.

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Historical Spheres of Influence in 20th Century Muay Thai

This is only a very rough sketch from compiled reading, but thinking about spheres of Muay Thai influence an historical trends. If I state things as fact this is only a parlance of my assumptions. On some topics I've read deeply into the history, in others I have only brushed over (for lack of English language record) and may make speculative leaps. It is hopeful that this informs, but not as an expert. Much more to set a broad picture, a framework, for real historical telling. It seems to me that any history of Muay Thai should include all 4 spheres.

above, Chaiyut, a powerful Sino-Thai gym owner and promoter from the 1955-ish, son of Tankee who was the same before him (found via Lev). "The one on the left was an international boxing champion at Raja, on the right is Saipet the Chinese fighter who held the 126 title until he moved to boxing."

Left: Sarika Yontharakit, Right: Saipet Yontharakit*

Chinese

The Chinese, who have been in Thailand close to 1,000 years, and perhaps even 2,000, at the turn of the 20th century were a huge political and economic influence upon Bangkok, and Siam in general. Chinese triads and secret societies (read here) ostensibly ran all gambling (which around 1900 made up 25% of the Siamese government's revenue around 1900 though vice tax farming), as well as large sectors of the economy such as the Chinese workforce on the docks of Bangkok, rice-mills, saw-mills, and tin mining in Phuket. Read Gambling, the State and Society in Siam, c. 1880-1945 here. When gambling was outlawed in a series of moralizing legal steps by King Vajiravudh in the 1910s, this was probably largely to fundamentally break off the government's dependency on Chinese financial power, or at least the secret society vice economy layer of that financial power. Notably, the King had to back off the outlawing of Bangkok Muay Thai gambling, as the sport's popularity took a nosedive. It was fundamentally a gambling sport even in 1920. The exception of Bangkok Muay Thai legal gambling goes back over 100 years to this time. 

The influence was not of Chinese fighting arts, as far as we can tell, though there were some Muay Boran vs Kung Fu fights back then (1921, below for instance), it was likely the consumate wholeness with the Chinese syndicates controlled parts of Bangkok economic culture.

Even in today's Muay Thai almost all the large Bangkok promoters are Sino-Thai, and no doubt much of the "gangster" aura around Bangkok Muay Thai through the decades may have been due to this Sino-Thai lineage, tracing back well before 1900. Between these eras the Chinese population of Siam also underwent great discrimination, and there were immigration waves from China following the Japanese wars on China and China' own civil wars. I do not know enough of Siam-Thai history to follow the politics of the Chinese in Siam, but it would be worthwhile to trace this, from turn of the century secret societies and tax farms, to the Sino-Thai predominance in contemporary Bangkok Muay Thai. Was this development continuous, or did it suffer breaks in position and power within the culture?

Most of the Western conception of Thailand's Muay Thai comes from the Bangkok Stadia, promotional scene, but almost none of this is understood through Thailand's Sino-Thai history.

 

above, General Tunwakom, a naval general and teacher of military Muay Lertrit

Military & Police Muay Thai and Boxing

When King Vajiravudh, as prince, returned from his young-adulthood education in England at military college and other institutions, he was not alone in this trend of Siamese royalty and elites being educated in England in their youth, especially with a view towards military practice. King Vajiravudh's experience of British Boxing helped inspire him to reform Siam's Muay Boran upon the more "civilizing" practice of Boxing. This is to say, as part of a military education among the elite came the influence of Boxing. The organization of a National Police force brought with it a curriculum that included not only Muay Thai, but also Boxing and Judo. By the time Police run Rajadamnern Stadium opened Muay Thai had been reorganized to resemble Western Boxing in the Capital.

Here, I'm not so much interested in detecting a direct influence of British Boxing on Thailand's Muay Thai, as to scope out a general sphere of influence that comes from military instruction (from foreign countries) and a certain relationship to Boxing. Boxing was taught in the academies, and prominent boxing leagues existed throughout the century, first probably on the British model, but then in the 1950s, under the influence of the US military which was taking an increased role in Thailand's military, aligning it within their own anti-Communism interests. In the 1950s the Siam Police force became incredibly well armed and trained by the US, and I believe by the 1960s Army and Police trained boxers filled out amateur and pro ranks in the region (Pone Kingpetch winning the first World Boxing title in the early 1960s). The Thai army ran Lumpinee and the Thai Police ran Rajadamnern, and by the late 1960s there were pro boxing fights on every card, something that continued until until sometime in the 2000s.

This is only to say that there is a rather large, and also Boxing-infused, Military and Police Force sphere of Muay Thai influence which very few Westerners think about, or even have knowledge of. It's very hard to quantify or even imagine just how thoroughly this influence pervaded, as both the Army and Police are extremely esteemed, run the two National Stadia, and set a standard of excellence throughout the country. Even such things as very long running regimes for Muay Thai, one could speculate, likely came out of military training, on both the British and then American examples. (In fact it seems probable that in the American tradition of Boxing, long runs may have come out of US military practice.) Many of the biggest Bangkok kaimuay camps were headed by Police officers. The Police in Thailand for some time developed into its own border-policing paramilitary group, it is not quite how the civic Police may be in your own country. At times it has been like a branch of the Thai military.

 

Royal Muay Thai

This is not an insignificant sphere, though I won't sketch out much of it here - academic Peter Vail does a good job of outlining the discussion. Muay Thai holds a very prominent role in its political ideology, from its characterization as the force of the people that prevented colonization (unlike neighboring countries), to foundational stories of Royal martial prowess. Muay Thai has a very strong Royal history, and during the very long reign of King Rama IX his patronage of the sport helped lift it symbolically in terms of social esteem. This stands apart from, though no doubt also is braided with Military and Police patronage and development, in that this helps compose its signification in the culture, and grants to Muay Thai in the Capital a level of social importance that rises above the gambling stadia dynamics. The Capital of Thailand (and Siam) is a North Star of value, and Muay Thai has been embraced ideologically, likely for centuries.

 

 

Provincial Muay Thai

This is a Muay Thai that, in part, develops a far from the Royal, Military & Police and Sino-Thai Gambling cultures, in festival fights, themselves organized through gambling. Provincial fighting also culminated in indepdent major city fighting scenes, especially around the Golden Age. I write in some detail about the structure of this development, at least from my speculative view: How Thailand's Muay Thai Has Been Collectively Created Through the Wisdom of Local Markets and Gambling. Because provincial fighters fought in the Bangkok scene, and train both as Thai military and police, and even fought in the military boxing leagues, this provincial development did not occur in isolation (though it was likely highly accelerated with the building of railroad lines in the 1905-1930s, for the first time connecting populaces quickly over distance). Over the last century there was a flux of Capital and Military Muay Thai experiences and pedagogies fed back into the provinces as fighters returned to their homes. But, in thinking about the large spheres of influence on Muay Thai's development and practice there can be no doubt that a major one is provincial Muay Thai, not only in terms of Boran styles which may have reflected local, antique knowledges, but also in the very large number of fights, 10,000s that have occurred every year, going back more than 100 years, if not quite a bit much longer, the skill-tested, fitness landscape "laboratory" of its evolution.

Included in this provincial history, though this would be its own branch of historical study, one would find the Muay Wat legacy of Muay Thai knowledge, the manor in which fighting techniques were taught in Thai temples, and still to this day are. Historically, there is likely a pre-modern legacy of magical practices and technical fighting practices that were braided together and preserved within the Wat. One could argue that the religious reforms that came with the fashioning of Siam into a modern Nation State, including the transformation of Muay Boran into a Boxing-influenced modernized sport, were in part to secularize the fighting capacities of Siamese subjects, moving away from the political power of regional Wats, and into a Nationalized Police and military force. The Wat connection to contemporary Muay Thai remain strong at the provincial, festival level. I discuss a bit of their relation to Muay Thai in this article:  The 3 Circulations of Thailand's Rural Muay Thai - Buddhism, Rice & Masculinity .

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

5 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

as well as large sectors of the economy such as the Chinese workforce on the docks of Bangkok, rice-mills and saw-mills, and tin mining in Phuket

In the early 20th century there was concern over the "revolutionary" identity shift among Chinese in Phuket. Most of the Chinese had cut off their cues (long, traditional ponytail). Reading now The Crown and the Capitalists: The Ethnic Chinese and the Founding of the Thai Nation to get a better perspective on Siamese/Thai and Ethnic Chinese relations as they shifted through the decades of the 20th century.

 

During WW2, when Thailand had allied itself with Japan (which had invaded China), there was still fear that China would use its rather vast nationalized Chinese education system (if I understand it right) within Thailand, to possibly turn Thailand into a Chinese colony. Chinese in Thailand were educated AS Chinese, and to some regard taken to be Chinese citizens, even though Thailand considered them Thai. Thailand in this case had a large number of transnational citizenry, whose alliance was not known.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Development of Muay Thai in the Siamese Populace

An interesting point about the corvee system of labor (established 1518) in the same work, is that it tied the population not only to the land, but also to the proto-state, in terms of movement. This rotation between one's land and state works, which included military service, would ostensibly train an outlying populace in warfare, circulating them back into their villages, so trained. This would work as a dissemination process of martial skills, as returning men themselves could train youth. If indeed (gambled) festival fighting throughout the village networks existed for centuries, developing a practice of inclusion/exclusion, this would account for a steady State driven effulgence that did not require a learning process of actual warfare (though slave labor capture campaigns were regular). It makes an interesting contrasted: a circulating farming populace continually training on rotation, and practicing that training in festival fighting, landed, and a far reaching and mobile non-Thai (Chinese, and others) merchant class, that transversed the region. The landed circulation of corvee work would augment my own thoughts that martial prowess also developed in general raiding patterns outside of the proto-states and their fortified capitals.

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

7 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

above, Chaiyut, a powerful Sino-Thai gym owner and promoter from the 1955-ish, son of Tankee who was the same before him (found via Lev).

These are photos of Sino-Thai gym owner and promoter Tankee, Chaiyut's father, in the 1940s (also via Lev)

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

7 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Chinese triads and secret societies (read here) ostensibly ran all gambling (from which at one point made up 25% of the Siamese government's revenue around 1900 came through gambling tax farming), as well as large sectors of the economy such as the Chinese workforce on the docks of Bangkok, rice-mills and saw-mills, and tin mining in Phuket.

Here is a description of the Chinese run tax-farming monopolies in the 1800s, from the work above...