Reputation and Game Planning

[Frank_B]

Hello Sylvie, Hello Kevin,

I just started following your activities very recently. I am very impressed by Sylvie's accomplishment in the sport but also by your eagerness to study, learn and improve. Your work ethics and your mental strength are off the charts - even for a professional athlete, I think. Having watched a number of fights, I have a many questions and would hope you could comment on some of them. I would like to inquire about the women that Sylvie is fighting:

Sylvie has fought over 260 times now. How about the women that you face? How many fights do they typically have under their belt? Do they fight as often as you and would they have a similar number of fights then? 

I understand that Muay Thai fighters start at a very early age and basically "live" their profession. Would that be true of the women that Sylvie is fighting as well? Do you have any idea at what age they started the sport and if they have a similar training regime as Sylvie? Are they economically depending on the prize money they win from fighting or do they chose to enter the sport as a vocation?

How is Sylvie's reputation in the scene. Would you think all the other women competing know Sylvie and her success? Do the other women know about Sylvie's fighting style and strengths? Is Sylvie feared by the other women in the sport in Thailand?

Sylvie ends many of her fights per KO or TKO. Some of them quite devastating (in particular Fights 234 and 241 against Nong Benz and 244 against Jomkwan Klangsangsarakam). Are these endings "normal" for the sport? I mean these women could not get back up for a while. In 244 Jomkwan barely managed to crawl out of the ring. Do these women recover and get back to fighting?

Thank you for your feedback!

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I'll try to answer this is some detail, there are some great questions in there.

 

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How about the women that you face? How many fights do they typically have under their belt? Do they fight as often as you and would they have a similar number of fights then? 

 

I don't believe there is a woman alive who has fought as much as Sylvie has, Thai or non-Thai, in any combat sport. The primary reason we took the approach of fighting so much is that Sylvie was starting later in life, so we took the "Thai way" of how young fighters grew in the sport. In Thailand when you are young you learn BY fighting, and you fight a lot. You fight every sort of opponent, and the quality of the matchups is governed, usually, by gambling interests. But, Thais do not continue fighting in this way. It's a growing process, but as soon as you start getting a name Thais tend to fight less often, in more controlled matchups, usually looking for other Thais that they can beat (forcing favorable matchups for themselves, winning beats) or names they can beat to build their reputation. For males this means the Bangkok Stadium circuit, for females it means the side-bet circuit. To keep fighting and fighting and fighting, as Sylvie does, as a Thai would mean not having the leverage to force favorable matchups, and building your "nobody can beat me" reputation.

 

As to the number of fights that Sylvie's opponents typically have, this varies of course, she's fought over 150 opponents. Some have fight numbers in the 100s or 200s (famous World Champion opponents like Thanonchanok or Loma), most probably have fight totals around 75 or so.

 

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I understand that Muay Thai fighters start at a very early age and basically "live" their profession. Would that be true of the women that Sylvie is fighting as well? Do you have any idea at what age they started the sport and if they have a similar training regime as Sylvie? Are they economically depending on the prize money they win from fighting or do they chose to enter the sport as a vocation?

 

There are a lot of cliché ideas about Thai fighters that float about, that they are impoverished, fight for rice, or are forced into fighting in some ways. Yes, there are examples, but a lot of the pictures of Thai fighters out there are very broad brush, and are part of a exoticism of Thailand from the West. Not all Thai fighters (and I'll guess that we can just talk about female Thai fighters) start at a very early age. Some may start in their early teens. Not all are from poor family, many come from what we may call urbran middle class families, some even from more upperclass families (though there can be stigma with the sport). As to training regimes, I don't think there is a fighter in the world, male or female, Western or Thai, who trains like Sylvie. She's on her own path, reaching for something that isn't really in the sport. Thai female opponents are varied. Some may have started from a very young age and achieved fight brilliance and even World Championship status by the time they are 15, but then begin to coast because they have superior skills, accolades, and train rather modestly, especially when compared to their western opponents - I think someone like Thanonchanok is like that. Fighting at a World class level for 7 years or so, many Thai female fighters become slack, just when they are hitting their physical prime. There is no ascending "fight scene" of great opponents and also financial incentive to keep them pushing their development hard. Just another belt to win once in a while. Then there are a whole host of female Thai fighters who fight out of Sports Schools. They train together, while also going to school, fight each other in female fight scenes, compete for stadium belts, try to get on televised higher paying shows, fight for World titles, etc. Their training seems to be regular, but not super high level. They are generally highly skilled, usually quite experienced fighters (sometimes fighting as much as once a week) in reasonably athletic shape, trying to improve themselves. They can be from more middle class families. And then there are fighters who are younger but are rising stars that come out of the side-bet scene. They are super skilled, are beating all the top fighters of the province they are from, usually have around 70 fights or so. Often these fighters are in very good physical shape because they are prize fighters, and they may be fighting at the peak of their career.

 

Very few of Sylvie's opponents (as far as we can understand) are "economically depending on their prize money" in the more stereotypical sense of how that is imagined. They largely are fighting for their name, their pride, their position in the scene, many with hopes for dreams like getting on the National Team, which can be quite lucrative. There is such variety of opponent, it's hard to generalize, but that's the sense we get. Some treat it as a vocation, or a potential vocation, but there is such a lack of a progressive female fight scene, in the sense males have, the way forward is unsure.

 

Something that is also pretty unique in Sylvie's opponents is that 95% of them Sylvie doesn't even pick. We just find dependable promotions that will be a source for a volume of fights, and don't even give much voice (or even thought) about whatever opponent they choose for her. Most fighter handlers are angling for advantages, and reasonably so - part of the fight game is gaining the leverage and authority to shape matchups -, but Sylvie just goes with whatever the promoter chooses. We ask: What is the weight, and what is her name (just to see if she's fought her before), and that is about it. Promoters really like Sylvie for this reason, she's a very low friction fighter, willing to take disadvantages. 

 

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How is Sylvie's reputation in the scene. Would you think all the other women competing know Sylvie and her success? Do the other women know about Sylvie's fighting style and strengths? Is Sylvie feared by the other women in the sport in Thailand?

 

Sylvie is something of a Unicorn of a fighter in Thailand. Many of the things she's become known for are just almost bizarre to Thais. She fights all over the country, in a variety of venues and promotions, whereas most fighters try to lock into lucrative single promotional, or powerful handles. Whereas most top Thai fighters quibble about 1 or 2 kg differences, Sylvie regularly takes on huge weight advantages even versus the best female Thai fighters in the country. She'll give up 5 kg, 7 kg to a literal World Champion. This just does not compute to Thais. And she wins (not always, but often). She got on the scale for a side bet fight, maybe a year ago, vs someone who is now the hottest Thai female fighter in Thailand, and was 5 kg lighter (after her opponent had cut), and their eyes practically fell out of their head. It's just not how it is done. Sylvie lost that fight, we are seeking a rematch, but it shows just out outside the lines Sylvie fights.

 

Everyone knows Sylvie's fighting style. In stadia where she has fought a lot, like Thapae Stadium in Chiang Mai, all the gamblers know what she's going to do. They match up huge weight disadvantages, and honestly the refs there break the clinch very quickly on her to make the match as exciting as possible, with both opponents having a chance. As to being feared, its really hard to know. She fights up so often, and on Thai television, it must create an aura. After Sylvie recently fought and beat a top fighter in the South (one of the very few she's fought her own weight), her opponent sat with her in the audience for a while, and told her nobody can beat her in the South. I pretty much know for sure that the present day WBC #1 ranked and WPMF World Champion near Sylvie's weight (a Thai) would never fight Sylvie, and probably for good reason. But, Thais also love coming after fighters with big reputations too, so there are always opponents. I think her reputation is that nobody at her weight in Thailand could beat her, but if fighting up 2 or 3 weight classes would be quite a scrap.

 

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Sylvie ends many of her fights per KO or TKO. Some of them quite devastating (in particular Fights 234 and 241 against Nong Benz and 244 against Jomkwan Klangsangsarakam). Are these endings "normal" for the sport? I mean these women could not get back up for a while. In 244 Jomkwan barely managed to crawl out of the ring. Do these women recover and get back to fighting?

 

Oh, Jomkwan was definitely ok. She's one of the best (underrated) fighters in the world. She was walking around a few minutes later, and was cornering for a teammate. Nong Benz was ok too. Almost all of Sylvie's T/KO s are knee knockouts, which means either a liver shot or just taking someone's breath away. These aren't particularly damaging, but they can shut you down for a few minutes. The rate of her knockouts is pretty unusual in Thailand where points usually decide fights, especially given how much weight she gives up.

 

 

 

[Frank_B]

4 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

As to training regimes, I don't think there is a fighter in the world, male or female, Western or Thai, who trains like Sylvie. She's on her own path, reaching for something that isn't really in the sport.

Thank you for your answers, Kevin. This does explain the success. Following up on that: How big an impact is the social media documentation on the success itself? I find Sylvie's comments on her own fights fascinating. Her insights open the door to what is actually going on (which as a layman I couldn't see before). I would have to think that doing this not only helps the followers on social media understand what is going on but should be very helpful for Sylvie herself to understand what she is doing well and what not and to improve herself. Basically, she is studying film of every fight. Since she is fighting some women more than once, studying the film of her last encounter must give her a huge advantage over her opponents if they didn't do that. In a couple of these videos Sylvie pointed out that she showed the fights later to her trainers and the former fighters that she is working with and they then gave her advice on what to do. How big of an impact is that? 

You mentioned above the "stigma" when talking about women from upper class families joining the scene. What is your sense of how Thais see Muay Thai fighters in general? Similar to MMA fighters in the west or even like football stars? Gambling seems to be a big part of the sport. How are the gamblers seen in Thailand? In the West this is seen as a vice. What is your sense how Thais look at this?

Finally, the pandemic must have had a massive impact on the scene. In one of your Vlogs you guys discussed that Clinching might be eliminated from the sport. Is the scene active at all now? Do you think that the sport will change as a result of the pandemic (in the sense that rule changes may become permanent)?

[StefanZ]

3 hours ago, Frank_B said:

 How big an impact is the social media documentation on the success itself? I find Sylvie's comments on her own fights fascinating. Her insights open the door to what is actually going on (which as a layman I couldn't see before). I would have to think that doing this not only helps the followers on social media understand what is going on but should be very helpful for Sylvie herself to understand what she is doing well and what not and to improve herself. Basically, she is studying film of every fight. Since she is fighting some women more than once, studying the film of her last encounter must give her a huge advantage over her opponents if they didn't do that. In a couple of these videos Sylvie pointed out that she showed the fights later to her trainers and the former fighters that she is working with and they then gave her advice on what to do. How big of an impact is that? 

Interesting observation, and I myself think, in much a spot on.

Because, its well known among serious students, to have  "learning journals" helps much in learning, in getting the knowledge mature.

And Sylvie together with Kevin does this, and in different forms. In written form, in discussing, in filming.  In talking about it, including these car ride blogs,, inside Sylvie´s  head it surely arouses new insights, and deepens up the knowledge.   And in fighting, obviously.   

Just the talking on the task, none or very little of jolly joking around looking elsewhere.  None or very little of just empty talk.

Showing up the thoughs and films openly adds up in the same direction.  Its as an artist or writer or scientist:  You can paint or write for yourself, and its nice and worthwile.  But the real test, the real insights come, when you publish yourself, make yourself open for kibitzing - and criticizm.

 

Re social media.  There are comments.   I presume some of the comments may even be helpful, and helps to arise or deepen new insights?

 

So this is a campain on many different fronts, more or less coordinated.  Both physically and intellectually, and emotionally too.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by StefanZ

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

15 hours ago, Frank_B said:

Basically, she is studying film of every fight. Since she is fighting some women more than once, studying the film of her last encounter must give her a huge advantage over her opponents if they didn't do that. In a couple of these videos Sylvie pointed out that she showed the fights later to her trainers and the former fighters that she is working with and they then gave her advice on what to do. How big of an impact is that? 

I know it may be hard to believe because of the way people in the west treat film and video, but its actually a very small part of what is going on. Looking at her fights again, at the very best, might give her confidence that certain work she is putting in is paying off a bit, but 99% of what she is doing with her fight commentary is just reliving the event for the benefit of others. She's really just trying to relay everything that mattered. Any kind of advice from video from others is pretty minor, and very often advice from the outside can be misplaced, because they just don't understand (often) how Sylvie has to fight to win, given the circumstances of how her opponents fight her. Female Thai fighters don't fight like male stadium fighters, so much of the outside advice, if from a particular fight video, is based on classic fighting tendencies which are much harder to apply in the female fight scene. I would say the fight video experiences are way less than .1% of a benefit. On the other hand, her commentary done on all her Muay Thai Library film sessions is very helpful. It allows her to isolate more objectively, the lessons and important bits, and incorporate them in her training. For instance just looking at her bag work with Wangchannoi, objectively, got her to really radically change how she did bagwork recently.

 

15 hours ago, Frank_B said:

You mentioned above the "stigma" when talking about women from upper class families joining the scene. What is your sense of how Thais see Muay Thai fighters in general?

This is actually changing in real time in Thai culture, but there is a very long stigma of the living scene of Muay Thai in Thailand as low-class, dirty, wrong-side-of-the-tracks. Middle class families would enroll their kids in TKD classes, because it isn't shirtless, and they have nice clean white uniforms, for instance. But in the last 5 years or so gyms, and Muay Thai gyms, have been branding themselves much more to the upper classes in cities, as a way to stay fit for women, so the classic stigma is shifting.

It also has to be said that while Muay Thai has had a class stigma, it also, ideologically, has been very important for Thai Nationalism and identity. So Thai victories, especially vs foreigners, is much esteemed and glorified. Perhaps the same thing could be seen, in parallel, with western boxing, which had a history of lower-class and disreputable participation, but boxing victories were celebrated at a very high level. 

15 hours ago, Frank_B said:

How are the gamblers seen in Thailand? In the West this is seen as a vice.

There is a very strong moralistic slant against gamblers and gambling. Gambling is largely illegal throughout the country, for moral reasons. And in Thailand it is only lawful at specific stadia. That being said, the country is quite superstitious and the government lottery (and various black market lotteries) is a huge phenomena. But Muay Thai does suffer socially from its gambling stigma.

 

15 hours ago, Frank_B said:

Finally, the pandemic must have had a massive impact on the scene. In one of your Vlogs you guys discussed that Clinching might be eliminated from the sport. Is the scene active at all now? Do you think that the sport will change as a result of the pandemic (in the sense that rule changes may become permanent)?

We've covered this in detail in the Muay Thai Bones podcasts, I think. Clinch has recovered in the sport, but it's place in the sport is less secure than what might be widely thought. I'm not really sure how much COVID will effect Muay Thai, a large part of that is how many surges of infection take place, and how effective the vaccine is. Muay Thai in Thailand finds itself in a difficult position. Because it is socially disreputable to some degree, and the first COVID cluster in Thailand came around Lumpinee (the 2nd one now, notably, has oriented now around an illegal casino), Muay Thai has to be super conservative in relation to COVID. It has an uphill PR problem. The reason why this is so complex is that Thailand's economy is heavily dependent on tourism, so while Thailand has had an amazingly good COVID safety record, one of the best in the world, there is great pressure to open up to tourists soon, faster than say a tourism competitor like Vietnam. Muay Thai in Bangkok and elsewhere is linked to tourism, so there is some risk in how and when the country will open up, which could cause long term problems with Muay Thai if things go wrong.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

12 hours ago, StefanZ said:

Showing up the thoughs and films openly adds up in the same direction.  Its as an artist or writer or scientist:  You can paint or write for yourself, and its nice and worthwile.  But the real test, the real insights come, when you publish yourself, make yourself open for kibitzing - and criticizm.

Thank you for recognizing this. It's one of the hardest parts, especially for someone who has been inherently shy much of her life. We've felt from the very beginning an obligation to put it out there, to share the knowledge and the perspective, but it's been a balancing act, because at the same time Sylvie is developing to become a fighter, a great fighter, so the social web of relations isn't always helpful in that. We've just tried to be very nose-to-the-grindstone on this, and keep putting out more high quality thought, documentation, art. Everything...