Jump to content

Graduate research on Muay Thai


Recommended Posts

Hi all, My name is Andrew Sorrells, I live in Bangkok where I attend a Master's program at Chulalongkorn University. I'm from California and previously trained MT and BJJ there. Now training Muay Thai in Bangkok. For my thesis I am conducting research on Muay Thai in general and in particular how Muay Thai has been popularized and localized in California. If you are a MT practitioner who has trained or fought in California, especially those who have also trained or fought in Thailand, I would be very interested in your opinions on training methodologies, techniques, competition rules, cultural differences etc., between California/US and Thailand. I encourage anyone from the US to participate also, not just California. The spread of Muay Thai throughout the world and the US is a very interesting phenomenon however, I am obligated to narrow my focus on California for the time being. However, I am working to advance the scholarly research and discourse on Muay Thai and Martial Arts in general, which is severely lacking in academic literature. 

I have created a questionnaire/survey in Google docs to gather data. I would really appreciate it if you all could take some time and fill it out. Thanks much, and I look forward to your answers, ideas, and comments. Thank you!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf2cGKo5P1hoz9tKR6xyvqBpn7q616kvTDCn4v04xWz-aW_lg/viewform?usp=sf_link

  • Like 1
  • Cool 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm really interested in this as well. I wish I knew more about California in particular, other than that there was something of a Thai instruction migration/s and that it held its own political power, coaching trees that seem to have claimed some kind of "authenticity" from that migration, and also the sense that community others have pushed back against this "Thainess", embracing a much more kickboxing, or boxing oriented methodology, and an opposition to California Thai Muay Thai. This tension feels (from a distance) like something that is essentially Californian in its Muay Thai. Perhaps I am imagining it, but from very far away, from the loose stories that I've heard over the years, it feels like there is a great divide there, in the unfolding of pedagogy.

In general though, the specific pedagogic trees in any country, city, etc, are super interesting, because knowledge and practices from from those narrow trees, every and always cutting off the richness of Thailand's Muay Thai, if only for business purposes, or practical means of teaching western students. It's like trying to fit the Amazon rain forest in an aquarium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very helpful, thank you so much Sylvie. I spent some more time exploring your website and videos. Your work is excellent, and important in documenting the masters of and legends of Muay Thai. Some would assume that someone has already done this, or is doing this, but that is not the case. There are some materials in the Thai language, but they are not extensive. It's analogous to Boxing in the US. Except by a niche audience, it's not always considered culturally significant. I can tell you that in the Thai academic environment, not too many people are interested, except as Muay Thai may relate to cinema, gender studies, or other "hot" academic topics. This may be changing now that Muay Thai for fitness is becoming popular with regular Thais, and more people are participating in the sport. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm really interested in this as well. I wish I knew more about California in particular, other than that there was something of a Thai instruction migration/s and that it held its own political power, coaching trees that seem to have claimed some kind of "authenticity" from that migration, and also the sense that community others have pushed back against this "Thainess", embracing a much more kickboxing, or boxing oriented methodology, and an opposition to California Thai Muay Thai. This tension feels (from a distance) like something that is essentially Californian in its Muay Thai. Perhaps I am imagining it, but from very far away, from the loose stories that I've heard over the years, it feels like there is a great divide there, in the unfolding of pedagogy.

In general though, the specific pedagogic trees in any country, city, etc, are super interesting, because knowledge and practices from from those narrow trees, every and always cutting off the richness of Thailand's Muay Thai, if only for business purposes, or practical means of teaching western students. It's like trying to fit the Amazon rain forest in an aquarium.

Exactly Kevin! Very well said. I think you captured the essence of what I'm trying to prove in my thesis. I really thought about it in the context of Karate, Kung Fu and other Martial Arts that have come to, and been modified by, the practitioners in the US. There were many Americans who only knew about Japan through Karate, China through Kung Fu/Bruce Lee, and so on. California, as with a lot of things, is the epicenter of many trends. As far as I know, Fairtex gym was one of the first MT gyms in the US. It started in Arizona and then moved to California. There is a lot to explore here.

I'm also very interested in the history of Muay Thai and where it may have ultimately originated from. Most of the historical records were lost when the Burmese sacked Ayutthya in 1767. Much of what is known prior to that time is based more on legend than fact. Some of the records were taken to Myanmar, and as far as I know have not been examined for historical information on Muay Thai. 

  • Cool 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Andrew said:

Most of the historical records were lost when the Burmese sacked Ayutthya in 1767. Much of what is known prior to that time is based more on legend than fact. Some of the records were taken to Myanmar, and as far as I know have not been examined for historical information on Muay Thai. 

When reaching back into the near-mythical origins of a martial art I think we have to also be aware that there are often ideological considerations, especially when countries each claim to be the "true origin" of a martial art or fighting style. There have been attempts to frame Thailand's Muay Thai as either Burmese in origin, or Lao (or their precursor). This battle over who is the source, especially in the absence of substantive documentation, always struck me as dubious. I mention this, as my own points of focus. I find this ideological framing of a martial art's history super interesting. Thailand itself has over the last century spent a lot of effort into framing it's own origin stories for Muay Thai, battles that go on today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • The BwO and the Muay Thai Fighter As Westerners and others seek to trace out the "system" of Muay Thai, bio-mechanically copying movements or techniques, organizing it for transmission and export, being taught by those further and further from the culture that generated it, what is missed are the ways in which the Thai Muay Thai fighter becomes like an egg, a philosophical egg, harboring a potential that cannot be traced. At least, one could pose this notion as an extreme aspect of the Thai fighting arts as they stand juxtaposed to their various systemizations and borrowings. D&G's Body Without Organs concept speculatively helps open this interpretation. Just leaving this here for further study and perhaps comment.   from: https://weaponizedjoy.blogspot.com/2023/01/deleuzes-body-without-organs-gentle.html Artaud is usually cited as the source of this idea - and he is, mostly (more on that in the appendix) - but, to my mind, the more interesting (and clarifying) reference is to Raymond Ruyer, from whom Deleuze and Guattari borrow the thematics of the egg. Consider the following passage by Ruyer, speaking on embryogenesis, and certain experiments carried out on embryos: "In contrast to the irreversibly differentiated organs of the adult... In the egg or the embryo, which is at first totally equipotential ... the determination [development of the embryo -WJ] distributes this equipotentiality into more limited territories, which develop from then on with relative autonomy ... [In embryogenesis], the gradients of the chemical substance provide the general pattern [of development]. Depending on the local level of concentration [of chemicals], the genes that are triggered at different thresholds engender this or that organ. When the experimenter cuts a T. gastrula in half along the sagittal plane, the gradient regulates itself at first like electricity in a capacitor. Then the affected genes generate, according to new thresholds, other organs than those they would have produced, with a similar overall form but different dimensions" (Neofinalism, p.57,64). The language of 'gradients' and 'thresholds' (which characterize the BwO for D&G) is taken more or less word for word from Ruyer here. D&G's 'spin' on the issue, however, is to, in a certain way, ontologize and 'ethicize' this notion. In their hands, equipotentiality becomes a practice, one which is not always conscious, and which is always in some way being undergone whether we recognize it or not: "[The BwO] is not at all a notion or a concept but a practice, a set of practices. You never reach the Body without Organs, you can't reach it, you are forever attaining it, it is a limit" (ATP150). You can think of it as a practice of 'equipotentializing', of (an ongoing) reclaiming of the body from any fixed or settled form of organization: "The BwO is opposed not to the organs but to that organization of the organs called the organism" (ATP158). Importantly, by transforming the BwO into a practice, D&G also transform the temporality of the BwO. Although the image of the egg is clarifying, it can also be misleading insofar as an egg is usually thought of as preceding a fully articulated body. Thus, one imagines an egg as something 'undifferentiated', which then progressively (over time) differentiates itself into organs. However, for D&G, this is not the right way to approach the BwO. Instead, the BwO are, as they say, "perfectly contemporary, you always carry it with you as your own milieu of experimentation" (ATP164). The BwO is not something that 'precedes' differentiation, but operates alongside it: a potential (or equipotential ethics) that is always available for the making: "It [the BwO] is not the child "before" the adult, or the mother "before" the child: it is the strict contemporaneousness of the adult, of the adult and the child". Hence finally why they insist that the BwO is not something 'undifferentiated', but rather, that in which "things and organs are distinguished solely by gradients, migrations, zones of proximity." (ATP164)
    • The Labor Shortage in Muay Thai As the Thai government is pushing to centralize Muay Thai as a Soft Power feature of tourism, and as Thai kaimuay become rarer and rarer, pushed out by big gyms (scooping up talent, and social demographic changes), there is a labor shortage for all the fights everyone wants to put on. There are two big sources to try and tap. There are all the tourists who can come and fight on Tourism Muay Thai (Entertainment) shows, and there are the provinces. The farang labor issue is taken care of by rule changes and Soft Power investment, but how do the provinces get squeezed in? Well, ONE Lumpinee is headed to the provinces, trying to build that labor stream into its economic model, and cut off the traditional paths from provincial fighting to Bangkok trad stadium fighting, and top BKK trad promoters are focusing more on provincial cards. There is a battle over who can stock their fight cards. ONE needs Thais to come and learn their hyper-aggressive swing hard and get knocked out sport, mostly to lose to non-Thais to grow the sport's name that way, fighting the tourists and adventure tourists, and the trad promoters need to keep the talent growing along traditional cultural lines. As long as the government does not invest in the actual ecosystem of provincial Muay Thai (which doesn't involve doing money handouts, that does not help the ecosystem), the labor stream of fighters will continue to shrink. Which means there is going to be a Rajadamnern vs Lumpinee battle over that diminishing resource. The logical step is for the government to step in and nurture the provincial ecosystem in a wholistic way, increasing the conditions of the seeding, small kaimuay that were once the great fountain for the larger regional scenes and kaimuay. headsup credit to Egokind on Twitter for the graphics. "You can get rich!!!!!!" (paraphrase)                  
    • The Three Great Maledictions on Desire I've studied Deleuze and Guattari for many years now, but this lecture on the Body Without Organs is really one of the the most clarifying, especially because he leaves the terminology behind, or rather shifts playfully and experimentally between terms, letting the light shine through. This is related to the continuity within High level traditional Muay Thai, and the avoidance of the culminating knock-out moment, the skating through, the ease and persistence. (You would need a background in Philosophy, and probably this particular Continental thought to get something more out of this.)   And we saw on previous occasions that the three great betrayals, the three maledictions on desire are: to relate desire to lack; to relate desire to pleasure, or to the orgasm – see [Wilhelm] Reich, fatal error; or to relate desire to enjoyment [jouissance]. The three theses are connected. To put lack into desire is to completely misrecognize the process. Once you have put lack into desire, you will only be able to measure the apparent fulfilments of desire with pleasure. Therefore, the reference to pleasure follows directly from desire-lack; and you can only relate it to a transcendence which is that of impossible enjoyment referring to castration and the split subject. That is to say that these three propositions form the same soiling of desire, the same way of cursing desire. On the other hand, desire and the body without organs at the limit are the same thing, for the simple reason that the body without organs is the plane of consistency, the field of immanence of desire taken as process. This plane of consistency is beaten back down, prevented from functioning by the strata. Hence terminologically, I oppose – but once again if you can find better words, I’m not attached to these –, I oppose plane of consistency and the strata which precisely prevent desire from discovering its plane of consistency, and which will proceed to orient desire around lack, pleasure, and enjoyment, that is to say, they will form the repressive mystification of desire. So, if I continue to spread everything out on the same plane, I say let’s look for examples where desire does indeed appear as a process unfolding itself on the body without organs taken as field of immanence or of consistency of desire. And here we could place the ancient Chinese warrior; and again, it is we Westerners who interpret the sexual practices of the ancient Chinese and Taoist Chinese, in any case, as a delay of enjoyment. You have to be a filthy European to understand Taoist techniques like that. It is, on the contrary, the extraction of desire from its pseudo-finality of pleasure in order to discover the immanence proper to desire in its belonging to a field of consistency. It is not at all to delay enjoyment.   This is not unrelated to the Cowardice of the Knockout piece I wrote:  
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own.  2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season.  One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
    • Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. 
    • If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works.
    • Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!   
    • Have you looked at venum elite 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.2k
×
×
  • Create New...