Graduate research on Muay Thai

[Andrew]

Hi all, My name is Andrew Sorrells, I live in Bangkok where I attend a Master's program at Chulalongkorn University. I'm from California and previously trained MT and BJJ there. Now training Muay Thai in Bangkok. For my thesis I am conducting research on Muay Thai in general and in particular how Muay Thai has been popularized and localized in California. If you are a MT practitioner who has trained or fought in California, especially those who have also trained or fought in Thailand, I would be very interested in your opinions on training methodologies, techniques, competition rules, cultural differences etc., between California/US and Thailand. I encourage anyone from the US to participate also, not just California. The spread of Muay Thai throughout the world and the US is a very interesting phenomenon however, I am obligated to narrow my focus on California for the time being. However, I am working to advance the scholarly research and discourse on Muay Thai and Martial Arts in general, which is severely lacking in academic literature. 

I have created a questionnaire/survey in Google docs to gather data. I would really appreciate it if you all could take some time and fill it out. Thanks much, and I look forward to your answers, ideas, and comments. Thank you!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf2cGKo5P1hoz9tKR6xyvqBpn7q616kvTDCn4v04xWz-aW_lg/viewform?usp=sf_link

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I'm really interested in this as well. I wish I knew more about California in particular, other than that there was something of a Thai instruction migration/s and that it held its own political power, coaching trees that seem to have claimed some kind of "authenticity" from that migration, and also the sense that community others have pushed back against this "Thainess", embracing a much more kickboxing, or boxing oriented methodology, and an opposition to California Thai Muay Thai. This tension feels (from a distance) like something that is essentially Californian in its Muay Thai. Perhaps I am imagining it, but from very far away, from the loose stories that I've heard over the years, it feels like there is a great divide there, in the unfolding of pedagogy.

In general though, the specific pedagogic trees in any country, city, etc, are super interesting, because knowledge and practices from from those narrow trees, every and always cutting off the richness of Thailand's Muay Thai, if only for business purposes, or practical means of teaching western students. It's like trying to fit the Amazon rain forest in an aquarium.

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

I've filled this out, hope it's helpful.

[Andrew]

Very helpful, thank you so much Sylvie. I spent some more time exploring your website and videos. Your work is excellent, and important in documenting the masters of and legends of Muay Thai. Some would assume that someone has already done this, or is doing this, but that is not the case. There are some materials in the Thai language, but they are not extensive. It's analogous to Boxing in the US. Except by a niche audience, it's not always considered culturally significant. I can tell you that in the Thai academic environment, not too many people are interested, except as Muay Thai may relate to cinema, gender studies, or other "hot" academic topics. This may be changing now that Muay Thai for fitness is becoming popular with regular Thais, and more people are participating in the sport. 

[Andrew]

10 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm really interested in this as well. I wish I knew more about California in particular, other than that there was something of a Thai instruction migration/s and that it held its own political power, coaching trees that seem to have claimed some kind of "authenticity" from that migration, and also the sense that community others have pushed back against this "Thainess", embracing a much more kickboxing, or boxing oriented methodology, and an opposition to California Thai Muay Thai. This tension feels (from a distance) like something that is essentially Californian in its Muay Thai. Perhaps I am imagining it, but from very far away, from the loose stories that I've heard over the years, it feels like there is a great divide there, in the unfolding of pedagogy.

In general though, the specific pedagogic trees in any country, city, etc, are super interesting, because knowledge and practices from from those narrow trees, every and always cutting off the richness of Thailand's Muay Thai, if only for business purposes, or practical means of teaching western students. It's like trying to fit the Amazon rain forest in an aquarium.

Exactly Kevin! Very well said. I think you captured the essence of what I'm trying to prove in my thesis. I really thought about it in the context of Karate, Kung Fu and other Martial Arts that have come to, and been modified by, the practitioners in the US. There were many Americans who only knew about Japan through Karate, China through Kung Fu/Bruce Lee, and so on. California, as with a lot of things, is the epicenter of many trends. As far as I know, Fairtex gym was one of the first MT gyms in the US. It started in Arizona and then moved to California. There is a lot to explore here.

I'm also very interested in the history of Muay Thai and where it may have ultimately originated from. Most of the historical records were lost when the Burmese sacked Ayutthya in 1767. Much of what is known prior to that time is based more on legend than fact. Some of the records were taken to Myanmar, and as far as I know have not been examined for historical information on Muay Thai. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

8 hours ago, Andrew said:

Most of the historical records were lost when the Burmese sacked Ayutthya in 1767. Much of what is known prior to that time is based more on legend than fact. Some of the records were taken to Myanmar, and as far as I know have not been examined for historical information on Muay Thai. 

When reaching back into the near-mythical origins of a martial art I think we have to also be aware that there are often ideological considerations, especially when countries each claim to be the "true origin" of a martial art or fighting style. There have been attempts to frame Thailand's Muay Thai as either Burmese in origin, or Lao (or their precursor). This battle over who is the source, especially in the absence of substantive documentation, always struck me as dubious. I mention this, as my own points of focus. I find this ideological framing of a martial art's history super interesting. Thailand itself has over the last century spent a lot of effort into framing it's own origin stories for Muay Thai, battles that go on today.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

@Andrew you may find this hour long conversation of interest, on related topics or themes

The Ethics of Muay Thai Propagation: Changing What We Love

https://8limbsus.com/a-husbands-point-of-view/ethics-muay-thai-propagation-changing-love

[Andrew]

Thanks Kevin. Off the network for a bit working, so just saw this when I returned. I'll check it out. Cheers.