Learning Muay Thai - Early Childhood Development and Later Starts

[Cilla]

moved from another thread to start a new line of discussion

This answer is kinda me thinking out loud haha.

I don't really have the answers to your question specifically but... in general terms (and this is purely my early childhood philosophy - not everyone's!) children learn best through play, so I imagine the kids around your gym are absorbing heaps of Muay Thai 'knowledge' through play, through adults modelling, through observation, through family and each other. Children make sense of their world through play so they probably mimic what they see important adults in their lives doing. I suppose this is a great example of how 'Muay Thai culture' is transmitted to the kids in a way that it can never be, for outsiders. It must just be in their blood - from being a baby around a gym, to playing to actually training. It's really mind blowing to think how integral it must be to their lives!

In terms of brain development and gross motor development, the learning of Muay Thai probably follows a progressive sequence - much like it does for adult beginners. Children who 'practise' these movements (whether through play or training) might be more likely to form the 'muscle memory' at quite a young age and then start developing the more cognitive skills of strategy and tactics, planning ahead and thinking about 'reading' their opponents intentions, at a later age when their cognitive function is more developed.

For instance, very young children are 'egocentric', meaning they find it difficult (or impossible) to put themselves in another's shoes (as a simple way of explaining it!). They can't really see another person's perspective. This is not 'egocentric' in the general usage sense of having a huge ego!

Sometimes children show you this trait when they say things like "Remember that dream where I was being chased?" They think because they know what was in the dream, that you will too. They can't put themselves in your shoes. This is one reason why young children have trouble sharing - THEY want the toy so that's all that matters. They don't understand that someone else might want it too. Its only later, they see the social payoff of sharing eg. adults are happy with you, kids share things back with you etc.

Until a child can cognitively move 'outside themselves' and see another's perspective, it would be pretty hard for them to predict an opponent's next move etc in Muay Thai. But the repetition in training (and playing) is also a vital way to develop the cognitive sense of sequence, order, successful combinations etc as well as the physical development of movements becoming 'second nature' and developing the required flexibility at such a young age eg. in the hips.

Sylvie, do you think the Thai kids and fighters you know are more flexible in general? Or is that totally an individual thing dependent on training or body type?

Definitely interesting to think about! Sorry for the rambling answer! I know, as a beginner myself, Muay Thai has been a very big mental challenge for me as well as physical. Moving from thinking about every single movement to some things starting to become second nature. Then in sparring, being under pressure, I could only barely think about my next move, let alone what my opponent was going to do next! Slowly, slowly I am working on getting better at these things. Little children probably do not think as overtly as we do about such things but develop their physical and strategic skills as they grow in age.

It would certainly be interesting to watch - maybe you have seen this, Sylvie, to some extent with Phetjee Jaa?

[Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu]

This answer is kinda me thinking out loud haha.

Sylvie, do you think the Thai kids and fighters you know are more flexible in general? Or is that totally an individual thing dependent on training or body type?

Definitely interesting to think about! Sorry for the rambling answer! I know, as a beginner myself, Muay Thai has been a very big mental challenge for me as well as physical. Moving from thinking about every single movement to some things starting to become second nature. Then in sparring, being under pressure, I could only barely think about my next move, let alone what my opponent was going to do next! Slowly, slowly I am working on getting better at these things. Little children probably do not think as overtly as we do about such things but develop their physical and strategic skills as they grow in age.

It would certainly be interesting to watch - maybe you have seen this, Sylvie, to some extent with Phetjee Jaa?

Flexibility is an interesting point because it's indirect. I never see Thais stretching. Even though Pi Nu tells westerners to "go stretch" and I've learned at several camps how to use the ring to learn how to open your hip for kicks (so it must be something Thais learn too at some point), I still never see them doing it. Sometimes Thais will come in for their very first session, whether kids or teens or adults, and within 20 minutes their kicks are awesome. It's incredible because it takes westerners years sometimes. But I reckon the flexibility in the hips comes from cultural differences like how squatting is still very common. In the west we start sitting in chairs from the moment we can sit up on our own and we rarely sit otherwise, so our hips develop an inflexibility that's not great for kicking. We have to "undo" something whereas cultures that still squat with some regularity don't have to "undo" anything.

I have a super hard time with the chess game, strategic part of Muay Thai. I'm a "dumb" fighter. A few of the guys who are holding pads for me lately are trying to get me to anticipate the next move, block because I know someone's going to kick back, etc. I'm just no there yet. Yesterday I was clinching with a kid who is very new. He's basically rocketed forward in his progress in a very short amount of time, but he's still very basic in everything. I was letting him knee me then I'd knee him back, over and over again. I figured out a while back how to jerk on the neck of the person I'm clinching every time they try to knee, which shuts down the strike. I know when the knee is coming - I don't know when distance strikes are coming. Anyway, I was telling this kid that he could anticipate my return knee because it happened every time after he kneed, and to shove me instead of letting me knee him. He tried it and was just beside himself at this new trick. He wouldn't have thought of it on his own - at least not for a long time; I only came up with it after a billion attempts at clinching - but he was receptive. A few other things I showed him he wasn't receptive; he wasn't "ready" for those yet.

That's what's hard about teaching Muay Thai, you try to shortcut everything by giving techniques and tricks before the basics are in there. So the student learns them as intellectual knowledge, but isn't ready to apply them yet as experiential knowledge. That right there is the whole story of everything I learned with Master K and am only now starting to be able to actually do. That's why little kids learning from such an early age, through play, is just light years beyond what we learn in classes. That's why your native language, learned naturally, is always going to be so much better ingrained than a second language that you learn through study. I have all this experience in my body but I never learned how to play so I can't access it. Then these little kids who basically mess around for an hour every afternoon are doing, like, spinning and flying moves out of nowhere. They've done that a hundred times already. It's not "a move," it's a game. And yeah, I absolutely see this in Phetjee Jaa and her brother Mawin.

 

 

[Cilla]

Flexibility is an interesting point because it's indirect. I never see Thais stretching. Even though Pi Nu tells westerners to "go stretch" and I've learned at several camps how to use the ring to learn how to open your hip for kicks (so it must be something Thais learn too at some point), I still never see them doing it.

Wow, I can't believe (as a generalisation), Thais don't stretch! I'm always so stiff, I have to stretch before each session. I thought cos I'm old but maybe its the cultural thing! I've never thought about that before.

 

I have a super hard time with the chess game, strategic part of Muay Thai. I'm a "dumb" fighter. A few of the guys who are holding pads for me lately are trying to get me to anticipate the next move, block because I know someone's going to kick back, etc. I'm just no there yet.

I'm so surprised to hear you say this about yourself. My trainer was taught in the femeur (spelling?) fighter technical style at a femeur gym and that is how I have been (am being) taught. He is trying to get me to read my opponents and try out things with them to see what they're going to do next. It's soo hard!

Now I know it's hard if an experienced person like you also struggles with it. I love this part of Muay Thai though, even though its so challenging. I think I am slowly getting better at it but I'm constantly thinking about this as I watch videos of fights etc, trying to see how fighters incorporate this intellectual side. I do love watching Saenchai's 'trickiness' for this reason - you can actually see him (with a lot of replaying!) work out how his opponent is going to react to certain situations and then he counters it perfectly. It really is inspiring to me.

I suppose this is another thing young kids can really incorporate via cultural Muay Thai osmosis! If they grow up constantly 'playing Muay Thai' with each other, they could become inherently good at this style without having to think through it like I do!

It must be amazing for you, and at times demoralizing, to watch little kids mastering difficult moves! I like to incorporate that sense of fun and play into my training too and I really appreciate some of the young guys/girls I train with who like to joke and muck around a little bit. We all take the training part seriously but it's nice to be able to laugh and really feel that enjoyment together when we're all doing something we love.

I love your comment about experiential knowledge too. I don't know how it happens, but sparring really does make you better. I get so frustrated sometimes and having a bad night at sparring on a Friday can really ruin my entire weekend. But sometimes, all the thinking and the training seem to come together into some sort of alchemy and there's an improvement or a breakthrough or a new technique makes sense! Like for children, the repetition does help and being able to use the knowledge in a real world situation (eg. sparring under pressure) really helps to integrate it. Most of the time I can't actually tell I've improved and if my trainer happens to mention something, I always quietly ask him later what he was referring to haha. I need to know so I can pay attention to what I've done or achieved and move on to my next challenge.

One thing I like to remember - even though kids have an age advantage and can really 'absorb' their Muay Thai, adults do have more advanced and developed brains (for the most part! haha) and that gives me hope that I can still learn the strategy and intellectual aspects of MT.