Jump to content

von Kleist's "Penthesilea" as Architypal Female Fighter Form


Recommended Posts

In some narrative frame it could be argued that German playwright and novelist Heinrich von Kleist is who made Sylvie a fighter, or in the sense of how Einstein theorizes about gravity, provided the enormously dense mass that distorted the fabric of space and time (the bowling ball on the blanket analogy), to make all things swing and sway "downhill" until it's a careening masterpiece of unparalleled fighting, alone in the sport. If you haven't read it, it's incredible. It's basically Sci-Fi written in the dawn of the19th century, a Science Fiction on Gender. You can find it in German here (Penthesilea, free download), and in English in a beautiful hardcover here (Penthesilea, Amazon). It really is High Art meets Marvel superhero. Nothing like it.

It would be a pretty long and convoluted story to lay out the personal history between the play and Sylvie, and myself, diving down into German Literature (Sylvie studied German, and studied in Berlin), but it's enough to say that I do believe that the play positioned ourselves. It lay the course for this mad, incredibly romantic adventure. Silver Surfer, Wolverine. These fantasy images definitely set the course for the affective potentials of a human, but Penthesilea does incredibly more than that. It outlines a problematic between gender relations, and it does so as an accelerant.

Sendak Penthesilea - Chasm.jpg

above, a Maurice Sendak illustration from the hardcover translation - ascending a chasm

Silver Surfer.jpg

descending from space - Silver Surfer

I'm really creating this post as a place holder for a potential conversation about the figure of Penthesilea, and how she relates to the frame of the contemporary female fighter ambition. There is so much to discuss here it is my hope that piecemeal elements of the puzzle can be jigsawed together. If you are interested in the subject I highly recommend you read the play - it's not easy to get in English, if anyone with a superior Google finger can find a PDF English translation link, that would be awesome. This was a really formitive play that as I look back on it now maybe 10 years after it's initial influence or so, it seems more true, or compass setting than ever. 

Penthesilea - Female fighting.jpg

above, the Death of Achilles in the play

It's hard to overstate the reach of this kind of examination. The myth of the Amazons - a parallel culture where women rule instead of men, bonded by a warrior code - has populated western consciousness for over 2000 years. Presently figures of martial power like Wonder Woman, drawn directly from that storytelling, symbolize real female power changes in the culture: growing voice, increased economic autonomies, self-determinations. Female fighters in the present day act out, in some sense, in the context of these images and storylines, and Penthesilea presents perhaps the acme of this kind of contestation, as female power to self-direct, take pride, self-own, wrestles against the idealized masculine form which symbolizes all of these things. The play traces the outline of the injunction which supposedly keeps the feminine from occupying the position of the masculine.

 

  • Like 1
  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit from the Science Fiction:

Odysseus
Well, then. Achilles goes with me to greet
The Scythian heroine where she sits mounted
In martial panoply before her maids,
Plumes flowing from her helmet, skirt tucked high,
Her palfrey tossing gold and purple tassels,
Hooves stamping on the muddy ground beneath.
For one long moment, with a pensive gaze
She stares into our ranks, void of expression,
As if we stood before her carved in stone;
This bare flat palm has more expressive features
Than were displayed upon that woman's face:
Until her glance meets that of Peleus' son:
A deepening flush spreads down unto her neck,
Blood sets her face aglow as if the world
Surrounding her were leaping into flames.
Then, with a sudden jolt, she swings herself
Casting a somber scowl upon Achilles
Down from her horse, and, stepping toward us, leaves
The reins with an attendant, and inquires
What brings us to her in such pageantry.
We Argives, I reply, are highly pleased
To come upon an enemy of Troy;
Long has a hatred for the sons of Priam
Consumed our hearts, I say; great benefit
Would be our Joint reward if we were friends;
And other suchlike bounties of the moment.
But then I notice in the flow of talking:
She doesn't hear a word. Instead, she turns
And with a look of utter wonderment,
Suddenly like a girl, a sixteen-year-old
On her way back from the Olympic Games,
Addresses a companion by her side:
Oh Prothoë, I do not think my mother,
Otrerë, ever laid eyes on such a man!
The friend, embarrassed at these words, stays silent,
Achilles smiles at me, and I at him,
While she herself stands gazing, as if drunk
With admiration, at that glittering figure:
Until her friend reminds her timidly
That she still owes an answer to my words.

Whether from rage or shame, another blush
Staining her harness crimson to the waist,
She turns to me, confusion, wildness, pride
Commingling in her face, and speaks:
I am Penthesilea, Queen of the Amazons,
And you shall have my arrows for reply!

 

It is a martial love story, with the ideal male form (Achilles). The above is the first outline of the impossibility of alliance, which proposes a fundamental, but perhaps still productive antinomy between the sexes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting reading of the essential tension between masculine and feminine in the figure of the Amazon (argued in the context that the Amazon Queen, and all Amazon's after her) tore her right breast off in order to be able to militarily fire bow which a man's efficiency:

Amazonian tension.PNG

 

from: "Suddenness and Suspended Moment: Falling in Heinrich von Kleist’s Penthesilea"

What is fascinating is how the contemporary female fighter can be positioned between culturally feminine and culturally masculine qualities. Instead of having to resolve which one she is, proposed is a kind of aesthetic solution, putting them in productive tension with each other, making the weapon and the art. Here the artist, the fighter, the Amazonian, sacrifices part of themselves to enter the order of the art, and then puts the parts of themselves in energetic tension.

In the Penthesilea text she herself in turned into a projectile composed of receptacle and hurling elements, a machine of propulsion, as she chases down Achilles - the economy of words in building this combustion picture is really incredible:

Look! With what eagerness

She hugs her thighs around her charger’s body!

How, parched with thirst, bent low into the mane,

She sucks into herself the hindering air!

She’s flying as if shot straight from an iron bow!

Numidian arrows don’t fly half as swiftly!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Arch - Kleist.PNG

 

Sylvie as Penthesliea.jpg

 

Yet, in the play, is also the countervailing imagery of being willing to be split right down the middle of your dichotomies. In the German the word used, here translated as "head", is more precisely akin to "part". Present the part in your hair, or the place you are split in two, to the heavens. Standing firm, by allowing oneself to be split asunder. This is the exposure that the female fighter ventures, I believe, exposing within themselves the halves of humanity.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The romantic era was so cool, not suprised they had a proto-Conan masterpiece like this. The idea of her physically altering herself in a radical way like that in order to fit into the male side of a dichotomy seems a bit odd to me though. When I think of warrior women I dont think of them as a walking dichotomy of male and female. Where Ive seen traditional accounts of warrior women(Greek, Scythian, Norse, Welsh) it doesnt seem like they dwell to much on them not fitting perfectly into a gender role, they seem to have a worldview that allows for more complexity than that. Maybe its just because they all come from a similar culture sphere. I wonder if this is maybe a Christian influence or simply from the mind of von Kleist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/27/2019 at 6:02 AM, Bad Seed said:

The idea of her physically altering herself in a radical way like that in order to fit into the male side of a dichotomy seems a bit odd to me though...I wonder if this is maybe a Christian influence or simply from the mind of von Kleist.

Maybe I'm not following exactly where your reference is here, but in the Kleist, and many other myths of the Amazons the breast is removed for efficacy in archery, not to "fit in" anywhere. Did I suggest above that there was a kind of fitting in that is involved in alteration (if so, can you quote it)? (I mean, there are ways that this definitely has been done by Sylvie, but I'm not sure I made that connection). The case can be made that women need to "castrate" themselves, in some fashion, in order to enter a male order, and that this ritual was part of the fantasy of the Amazon as imagined by Athenian (male) Greeks.

As to whether the removal of the breast was some kind of Christianized influence I think that is pretty doubtful. The name "Amazon" is literally taken to mean "without breast" in the Greek a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός). It has been linked to their mythology from the very beginning (though in vase paintings they were never depicted as self-mutilated).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archery is a hobby of mine and without looking into the deeper thoughts behind it I find it interesting that it wouldn't really be necessary to remove a breast for precision in archery, especially not with the "horsebows" typical of the general area which are relatively short reflex bows which means when you draw them, the string forms a relatively sharp angle and doesn't take up a lot of room around the archer's chest area.

Of course there are countless different styles of archery and I bet there are some where female breasts COULD be in the way but I'd think you'd rather adopt your style in such a case.

 

Just for the fun of it as you were bringing up comic art, here is a SciFi interpretation of Penthesilea in the form of a 28mm-scale miniature for the tabletop wargame Infinity (yet another hobby of mine):

 

800px-PennyLE1.jpg

Edited by Xestaro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2019 at 4:14 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Maybe I'm not following exactly where your reference is here, but in the Kleist, and many other myths of the Amazons the breast is removed for efficacy in archery, not to "fit in" anywhere. Did I suggest above that there was a kind of fitting in that is involved in alteration (if so, can you quote it)? (I mean, there are ways that this definitely has been done by Sylvie, but I'm not sure I made that connection). The case can be made that women need to "castrate" themselves, in some fashion, in order to enter a male order, and that this ritual was part of the fantasy of the Amazon as imagined by Athenian (male) Greeks.

As to whether the removal of the breast was some kind of Christianized influence I think that is pretty doubtful. The name "Amazon" is literally taken to mean "without breast" in the Greek a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός). It has been linked to their mythology from the very beginning (though in vase paintings they were never depicted as self-mutilated).

I very well may have mistakenly made that connection while synthesizing your post in my head, if so my bad. I dont mean to derail the thread with a Greek mythology discussion but my thoughts for anyone interested: The breastless archery thing still seems weird to me. Archery makes me think of Artemis, the Greek hunting goddess known for mad skill with her bow. Also doing a bit of googling it seems the a- mazos etymology was most likely a folk etymology, and considering the art depictions the breast removal myth attested by Justinus is considered by some to be inspired by the folk etymology.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • This was good on Reddit a few years ago:   The Game Logic of the Danced Off 5th Round in Thailand's Muay Thai I was having a great conversation with Sylvie about the nature of Thailand's Muay Thai this morning, and why when you have the lead in the fight, traditionally, you begin to retreat and defend that lead, instead of marching forward and adding more pressure. You ostensibly "perform your lead" by taking defensive tactics, which to many parts of the world looks like the opposite of "fighting". In a comment on Reddit I was trying to explain this phenomena through how someone like Usain Bolt will ease up and coast into the last 15 meters, in a kind of dominance while everyone else is burning hard, because of a kind of excess, "I don't even have to punch it to beat you". This is a big part of the Muay Thai aesethetic. You can read that comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MuayThai/comments/pxtv2x/i_think_people_do_not_understand_how_thailands/hesx7fs/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 The reason for this is that Thailand's Muay Thai is about dominance, not aggression. Aggression can be a tool toward dominance, but it's only one tool in the tool box. A lot of this stems from the fact that Thailand's Muay Thai evolved to express a Buddhistic culture (and a reason why I'd argue that turning MT promotions into hyper-aggressive shows can contain a hidden cultural betrayal), but as you can see from the Usain Bolt analogy, in the West we can understand this kind of "ease into the tape" signature of superiority. Even in Western boxing we can admire the artful boxer who just toys with his opponent's aggression with an artful jab, evasiveness or movement (think Ali or Mayweather), its not all that far from parts of our own sports values. It's enough to say this led to a really interesting analogy Sylvie gave me regarding the much derided 5th round dance off in Thailand's Muay Thai. Let's say right off there are admittedly big problems with the 5th round dance off. It's safe to say that it is an aspect of Muay Thai that has become distorted and exaggerated, and not only produces unexciting ends to fights, its become the signature of big name gambling's powerful influence in the sport. This post is really about the underlying logic of the dance off, and besides its current flaws, what positive values it is expressing, helping explain how it is also viewed. Why do two fighters dance off the 5th round at times? Why does a fighter who is behind not keep trying, keep fighting?! When one fighter is signaling an insurmountable lead, why isn't the other fighter "heroically" relentless in pursuit? Chess Gives A Clue Sylvie's analogy comes from Chess. In Thailand's Muay Thai there is a definite "Gentleman's Sport" ethic that works to compliment it's absolute violence, so Chess is an interesting parallel. She said to me: In chess once you've gotten to the place in the game where you know by sheer logic you are going to lose you tip your own King over and resign. Masters will resign in positions that casual viewers might not even understand. There are a lot of pieces on the board! What a player is doing when they resign is showing their IQ for the game. If you continue fighting to win from unwinnable positions you can be signaling your inability to even see the board. Yes, your opponent may make an unexpected blunder. Yes, there might be buried in the position of some improbable ability to leverage a draw, but largely what is happening is that you are placing yourself ABOVE this particular game. If you struggled forward, not really realizing your fate, your would be signaling to your audience and your opponent you lack understanding. You can't see. This keys into deeper Thai cultural views that regard sheer aggression as low IQ and somewhat animalistic (non-human). You don't understand Chess. Now, there are all kinds of Chess players, and some of them may become famous for fighting out of bad positions and stealing draws. This isn't to describe what one should do, it's to explain the logic of why a losing fighter would choose to dance off. They acknowledge the board position, they are above this particular match/game. Thai fighters fight a LOT of fights. The tournament of a career is composed of many games. Now, once you get the logic you can also see where the problems are. If there are TOO many sprinters coasting into the tape. If there are TOO many fighters touching gloves in the 5th round, the "board" of the game is being influenced by something (or the match making is very poor). In these cases its explained that the chess board of the fight, the position that fighters are responding to, involves the heavy thumb of powerful gamblers. You touch gloves not only because of the "position" of how the fight was fought, but also understanding the powers that shape the fight as well. You can see that the lead in front of you is of a type that you would look stupid if you fought against it. You would look like you didn't understand the game and how it is won. How the 5th round is fought has changed over the decades, to be sure. It has stretched too far into a direction, but the logic of the danced round remains the same, that of the Chess match. Taking Ideology Into Context Too I also think that there are cultural elements that make this hard to read from a Western perspective. In the West we have a big celebration of the Little Guy. In the mythology of the West we have the story of the insignificant man who through "hard work" overcomes all odds against him. There is not only great romance over this ideological story, fighting itself has been an entertainment form that expresses this romance. We see this in the entire Rocky Balboa Working Man franchise. For us a lot of fighting is about this. I do think these stories resonate with Thai storytelling. Great fighters of the past who became champions out of rural provinces, fighters like Samson Isaan (who literally took the name of Isaan), do represent a kind of working class, provincial victory against all odds, but this is in the context of a much less socially mobile society, than say America. The much older cultural stories of Thailand are ones of hierarchy, and layered, group-bound peoples. Part of the "checkmate in waiting" acceptance is probably best understood in this wider lack of mobility, a lack of a more highly Individualistic Self-Destiny mythology (which contains its own social ills). In "seeing the mate" in advance you to some degree transcend your situation by demonstrating that you understand it, you see the position on the board from above, you have that IQ...but you are also trapped by it, you accept THIS loss, in the name of having perhaps a better chance to win the next time. This isn't to say that dancing off the 5th round is the right thing to do, in any particular fight, or even to say that the practice of the 5th round in today's Muay Thai doesn't need to substantively change, it does. But it's to explain the logic of it. Today's Muay Thai in Thailand is trying to take the big name Gambler's thumb off the scale, not an easy task because gambling itself is woven into the seriousness of matches, a fighter's identity, and the passion for Muay Thai itself. It's instead to try and explain the nature of some of the thinking that is beneath a 5th round performance. It is not just fighters taking a break "because they fight so much". It's locating yourself, positioning yourself socially in the game, a game you are ultimately trying to win. If interested in my thoughts on what I believe underlies Thailand's Muay Thai can see my article on the "6 Core Aspects" https://8limbsus.com/muay-thai-thailand/essence-muay-thai-6-core-aspects-makes
    • Clinch Devolving Channel 7. Muay Thai has gotten into a very bad habit of when there is a lead the ref just breaks clinch the moment it gets to the rope. This leads to just a fighter chasing to the rope, and then break, over and over and over and over. If refs would just let these positions on the rope cook for a bit, they'd start to degrade, and the fighter with the lead would have to do more than just wait for the ref. Main event today. An early count just led to endless ref breaks. Let clinch breathe. It builds skills, narrative.
    • This caption (below) says "Honestly, this fight was more exciting than ONE", from Remina's page https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3793175460900201&rdid=anii3llwrR2LSV4j
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own.  2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season.  One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
    • Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. 
    • If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works.
    • Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!   
    • Have you looked at venum elite 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.1k
×
×
  • Create New...