Jump to content

von Kleist's "Penthesilea" as Architypal Female Fighter Form


Recommended Posts

In some narrative frame it could be argued that German playwright and novelist Heinrich von Kleist is who made Sylvie a fighter, or in the sense of how Einstein theorizes about gravity, provided the enormously dense mass that distorted the fabric of space and time (the bowling ball on the blanket analogy), to make all things swing and sway "downhill" until it's a careening masterpiece of unparalleled fighting, alone in the sport. If you haven't read it, it's incredible. It's basically Sci-Fi written in the dawn of the19th century, a Science Fiction on Gender. You can find it in German here (Penthesilea, free download), and in English in a beautiful hardcover here (Penthesilea, Amazon). It really is High Art meets Marvel superhero. Nothing like it.

It would be a pretty long and convoluted story to lay out the personal history between the play and Sylvie, and myself, diving down into German Literature (Sylvie studied German, and studied in Berlin), but it's enough to say that I do believe that the play positioned ourselves. It lay the course for this mad, incredibly romantic adventure. Silver Surfer, Wolverine. These fantasy images definitely set the course for the affective potentials of a human, but Penthesilea does incredibly more than that. It outlines a problematic between gender relations, and it does so as an accelerant.

Sendak Penthesilea - Chasm.jpg

above, a Maurice Sendak illustration from the hardcover translation - ascending a chasm

Silver Surfer.jpg

descending from space - Silver Surfer

I'm really creating this post as a place holder for a potential conversation about the figure of Penthesilea, and how she relates to the frame of the contemporary female fighter ambition. There is so much to discuss here it is my hope that piecemeal elements of the puzzle can be jigsawed together. If you are interested in the subject I highly recommend you read the play - it's not easy to get in English, if anyone with a superior Google finger can find a PDF English translation link, that would be awesome. This was a really formitive play that as I look back on it now maybe 10 years after it's initial influence or so, it seems more true, or compass setting than ever. 

Penthesilea - Female fighting.jpg

above, the Death of Achilles in the play

It's hard to overstate the reach of this kind of examination. The myth of the Amazons - a parallel culture where women rule instead of men, bonded by a warrior code - has populated western consciousness for over 2000 years. Presently figures of martial power like Wonder Woman, drawn directly from that storytelling, symbolize real female power changes in the culture: growing voice, increased economic autonomies, self-determinations. Female fighters in the present day act out, in some sense, in the context of these images and storylines, and Penthesilea presents perhaps the acme of this kind of contestation, as female power to self-direct, take pride, self-own, wrestles against the idealized masculine form which symbolizes all of these things. The play traces the outline of the injunction which supposedly keeps the feminine from occupying the position of the masculine.

 

  • Like 1
  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit from the Science Fiction:

Odysseus
Well, then. Achilles goes with me to greet
The Scythian heroine where she sits mounted
In martial panoply before her maids,
Plumes flowing from her helmet, skirt tucked high,
Her palfrey tossing gold and purple tassels,
Hooves stamping on the muddy ground beneath.
For one long moment, with a pensive gaze
She stares into our ranks, void of expression,
As if we stood before her carved in stone;
This bare flat palm has more expressive features
Than were displayed upon that woman's face:
Until her glance meets that of Peleus' son:
A deepening flush spreads down unto her neck,
Blood sets her face aglow as if the world
Surrounding her were leaping into flames.
Then, with a sudden jolt, she swings herself
Casting a somber scowl upon Achilles
Down from her horse, and, stepping toward us, leaves
The reins with an attendant, and inquires
What brings us to her in such pageantry.
We Argives, I reply, are highly pleased
To come upon an enemy of Troy;
Long has a hatred for the sons of Priam
Consumed our hearts, I say; great benefit
Would be our Joint reward if we were friends;
And other suchlike bounties of the moment.
But then I notice in the flow of talking:
She doesn't hear a word. Instead, she turns
And with a look of utter wonderment,
Suddenly like a girl, a sixteen-year-old
On her way back from the Olympic Games,
Addresses a companion by her side:
Oh Prothoë, I do not think my mother,
Otrerë, ever laid eyes on such a man!
The friend, embarrassed at these words, stays silent,
Achilles smiles at me, and I at him,
While she herself stands gazing, as if drunk
With admiration, at that glittering figure:
Until her friend reminds her timidly
That she still owes an answer to my words.

Whether from rage or shame, another blush
Staining her harness crimson to the waist,
She turns to me, confusion, wildness, pride
Commingling in her face, and speaks:
I am Penthesilea, Queen of the Amazons,
And you shall have my arrows for reply!

 

It is a martial love story, with the ideal male form (Achilles). The above is the first outline of the impossibility of alliance, which proposes a fundamental, but perhaps still productive antinomy between the sexes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting reading of the essential tension between masculine and feminine in the figure of the Amazon (argued in the context that the Amazon Queen, and all Amazon's after her) tore her right breast off in order to be able to militarily fire bow which a man's efficiency:

Amazonian tension.PNG

 

from: "Suddenness and Suspended Moment: Falling in Heinrich von Kleist’s Penthesilea"

What is fascinating is how the contemporary female fighter can be positioned between culturally feminine and culturally masculine qualities. Instead of having to resolve which one she is, proposed is a kind of aesthetic solution, putting them in productive tension with each other, making the weapon and the art. Here the artist, the fighter, the Amazonian, sacrifices part of themselves to enter the order of the art, and then puts the parts of themselves in energetic tension.

In the Penthesilea text she herself in turned into a projectile composed of receptacle and hurling elements, a machine of propulsion, as she chases down Achilles - the economy of words in building this combustion picture is really incredible:

Look! With what eagerness

She hugs her thighs around her charger’s body!

How, parched with thirst, bent low into the mane,

She sucks into herself the hindering air!

She’s flying as if shot straight from an iron bow!

Numidian arrows don’t fly half as swiftly!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Arch - Kleist.PNG

 

Sylvie as Penthesliea.jpg

 

Yet, in the play, is also the countervailing imagery of being willing to be split right down the middle of your dichotomies. In the German the word used, here translated as "head", is more precisely akin to "part". Present the part in your hair, or the place you are split in two, to the heavens. Standing firm, by allowing oneself to be split asunder. This is the exposure that the female fighter ventures, I believe, exposing within themselves the halves of humanity.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The romantic era was so cool, not suprised they had a proto-Conan masterpiece like this. The idea of her physically altering herself in a radical way like that in order to fit into the male side of a dichotomy seems a bit odd to me though. When I think of warrior women I dont think of them as a walking dichotomy of male and female. Where Ive seen traditional accounts of warrior women(Greek, Scythian, Norse, Welsh) it doesnt seem like they dwell to much on them not fitting perfectly into a gender role, they seem to have a worldview that allows for more complexity than that. Maybe its just because they all come from a similar culture sphere. I wonder if this is maybe a Christian influence or simply from the mind of von Kleist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/27/2019 at 6:02 AM, Bad Seed said:

The idea of her physically altering herself in a radical way like that in order to fit into the male side of a dichotomy seems a bit odd to me though...I wonder if this is maybe a Christian influence or simply from the mind of von Kleist.

Maybe I'm not following exactly where your reference is here, but in the Kleist, and many other myths of the Amazons the breast is removed for efficacy in archery, not to "fit in" anywhere. Did I suggest above that there was a kind of fitting in that is involved in alteration (if so, can you quote it)? (I mean, there are ways that this definitely has been done by Sylvie, but I'm not sure I made that connection). The case can be made that women need to "castrate" themselves, in some fashion, in order to enter a male order, and that this ritual was part of the fantasy of the Amazon as imagined by Athenian (male) Greeks.

As to whether the removal of the breast was some kind of Christianized influence I think that is pretty doubtful. The name "Amazon" is literally taken to mean "without breast" in the Greek a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός). It has been linked to their mythology from the very beginning (though in vase paintings they were never depicted as self-mutilated).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archery is a hobby of mine and without looking into the deeper thoughts behind it I find it interesting that it wouldn't really be necessary to remove a breast for precision in archery, especially not with the "horsebows" typical of the general area which are relatively short reflex bows which means when you draw them, the string forms a relatively sharp angle and doesn't take up a lot of room around the archer's chest area.

Of course there are countless different styles of archery and I bet there are some where female breasts COULD be in the way but I'd think you'd rather adopt your style in such a case.

 

Just for the fun of it as you were bringing up comic art, here is a SciFi interpretation of Penthesilea in the form of a 28mm-scale miniature for the tabletop wargame Infinity (yet another hobby of mine):

 

800px-PennyLE1.jpg

Edited by Xestaro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2019 at 4:14 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Maybe I'm not following exactly where your reference is here, but in the Kleist, and many other myths of the Amazons the breast is removed for efficacy in archery, not to "fit in" anywhere. Did I suggest above that there was a kind of fitting in that is involved in alteration (if so, can you quote it)? (I mean, there are ways that this definitely has been done by Sylvie, but I'm not sure I made that connection). The case can be made that women need to "castrate" themselves, in some fashion, in order to enter a male order, and that this ritual was part of the fantasy of the Amazon as imagined by Athenian (male) Greeks.

As to whether the removal of the breast was some kind of Christianized influence I think that is pretty doubtful. The name "Amazon" is literally taken to mean "without breast" in the Greek a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός). It has been linked to their mythology from the very beginning (though in vase paintings they were never depicted as self-mutilated).

I very well may have mistakenly made that connection while synthesizing your post in my head, if so my bad. I dont mean to derail the thread with a Greek mythology discussion but my thoughts for anyone interested: The breastless archery thing still seems weird to me. Archery makes me think of Artemis, the Greek hunting goddess known for mad skill with her bow. Also doing a bit of googling it seems the a- mazos etymology was most likely a folk etymology, and considering the art depictions the breast removal myth attested by Justinus is considered by some to be inspired by the folk etymology.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Most Recent Topics

  • Latest Comments

    • The BwO and the Muay Thai Fighter As Westerners and others seek to trace out the "system" of Muay Thai, bio-mechanically copying movements or techniques, organizing it for transmission and export, being taught by those further and further from the culture that generated it, what is missed are the ways in which the Thai Muay Thai fighter becomes like an egg, a philosophical egg, harboring a potential that cannot be traced. At least, one could pose this notion as an extreme aspect of the Thai fighting arts as they stand juxtaposed to their various systemizations and borrowings. D&G's Body Without Organs concept speculatively helps open this interpretation. Just leaving this here for further study and perhaps comment.   from: https://weaponizedjoy.blogspot.com/2023/01/deleuzes-body-without-organs-gentle.html Artaud is usually cited as the source of this idea - and he is, mostly (more on that in the appendix) - but, to my mind, the more interesting (and clarifying) reference is to Raymond Ruyer, from whom Deleuze and Guattari borrow the thematics of the egg. Consider the following passage by Ruyer, speaking on embryogenesis, and certain experiments carried out on embryos: "In contrast to the irreversibly differentiated organs of the adult... In the egg or the embryo, which is at first totally equipotential ... the determination [development of the embryo -WJ] distributes this equipotentiality into more limited territories, which develop from then on with relative autonomy ... [In embryogenesis], the gradients of the chemical substance provide the general pattern [of development]. Depending on the local level of concentration [of chemicals], the genes that are triggered at different thresholds engender this or that organ. When the experimenter cuts a T. gastrula in half along the sagittal plane, the gradient regulates itself at first like electricity in a capacitor. Then the affected genes generate, according to new thresholds, other organs than those they would have produced, with a similar overall form but different dimensions" (Neofinalism, p.57,64). The language of 'gradients' and 'thresholds' (which characterize the BwO for D&G) is taken more or less word for word from Ruyer here. D&G's 'spin' on the issue, however, is to, in a certain way, ontologize and 'ethicize' this notion. In their hands, equipotentiality becomes a practice, one which is not always conscious, and which is always in some way being undergone whether we recognize it or not: "[The BwO] is not at all a notion or a concept but a practice, a set of practices. You never reach the Body without Organs, you can't reach it, you are forever attaining it, it is a limit" (ATP150). You can think of it as a practice of 'equipotentializing', of (an ongoing) reclaiming of the body from any fixed or settled form of organization: "The BwO is opposed not to the organs but to that organization of the organs called the organism" (ATP158). Importantly, by transforming the BwO into a practice, D&G also transform the temporality of the BwO. Although the image of the egg is clarifying, it can also be misleading insofar as an egg is usually thought of as preceding a fully articulated body. Thus, one imagines an egg as something 'undifferentiated', which then progressively (over time) differentiates itself into organs. However, for D&G, this is not the right way to approach the BwO. Instead, the BwO are, as they say, "perfectly contemporary, you always carry it with you as your own milieu of experimentation" (ATP164). The BwO is not something that 'precedes' differentiation, but operates alongside it: a potential (or equipotential ethics) that is always available for the making: "It [the BwO] is not the child "before" the adult, or the mother "before" the child: it is the strict contemporaneousness of the adult, of the adult and the child". Hence finally why they insist that the BwO is not something 'undifferentiated', but rather, that in which "things and organs are distinguished solely by gradients, migrations, zones of proximity." (ATP164)
    • The Labor Shortage in Muay Thai As the Thai government is pushing to centralize Muay Thai as a Soft Power feature of tourism, and as Thai kaimuay become rarer and rarer, pushed out by big gyms (scooping up talent, and social demographic changes), there is a labor shortage for all the fights everyone wants to put on. There are two big sources to try and tap. There are all the tourists who can come and fight on Tourism Muay Thai (Entertainment) shows, and there are the provinces. The farang labor issue is taken care of by rule changes and Soft Power investment, but how do the provinces get squeezed in? Well, ONE Lumpinee is headed to the provinces, trying to build that labor stream into its economic model, and cut off the traditional paths from provincial fighting to Bangkok trad stadium fighting, and top BKK trad promoters are focusing more on provincial cards. There is a battle over who can stock their fight cards. ONE needs Thais to come and learn their hyper-aggressive swing hard and get knocked out sport, mostly to lose to non-Thais to grow the sport's name that way, fighting the tourists and adventure tourists, and the trad promoters need to keep the talent growing along traditional cultural lines. As long as the government does not invest in the actual ecosystem of provincial Muay Thai (which doesn't involve doing money handouts, that does not help the ecosystem), the labor stream of fighters will continue to shrink. Which means there is going to be a Rajadamnern vs Lumpinee battle over that diminishing resource. The logical step is for the government to step in and nurture the provincial ecosystem in a wholistic way, increasing the conditions of the seeding, small kaimuay that were once the great fountain for the larger regional scenes and kaimuay. headsup credit to Egokind on Twitter for the graphics. "You can get rich!!!!!!" (paraphrase)                  
    • The Three Great Maledictions on Desire I've studied Deleuze and Guattari for many years now, but this lecture on the Body Without Organs is really one of the the most clarifying, especially because he leaves the terminology behind, or rather shifts playfully and experimentally between terms, letting the light shine through. This is related to the continuity within High level traditional Muay Thai, and the avoidance of the culminating knock-out moment, the skating through, the ease and persistence. (You would need a background in Philosophy, and probably this particular Continental thought to get something more out of this.)   And we saw on previous occasions that the three great betrayals, the three maledictions on desire are: to relate desire to lack; to relate desire to pleasure, or to the orgasm – see [Wilhelm] Reich, fatal error; or to relate desire to enjoyment [jouissance]. The three theses are connected. To put lack into desire is to completely misrecognize the process. Once you have put lack into desire, you will only be able to measure the apparent fulfilments of desire with pleasure. Therefore, the reference to pleasure follows directly from desire-lack; and you can only relate it to a transcendence which is that of impossible enjoyment referring to castration and the split subject. That is to say that these three propositions form the same soiling of desire, the same way of cursing desire. On the other hand, desire and the body without organs at the limit are the same thing, for the simple reason that the body without organs is the plane of consistency, the field of immanence of desire taken as process. This plane of consistency is beaten back down, prevented from functioning by the strata. Hence terminologically, I oppose – but once again if you can find better words, I’m not attached to these –, I oppose plane of consistency and the strata which precisely prevent desire from discovering its plane of consistency, and which will proceed to orient desire around lack, pleasure, and enjoyment, that is to say, they will form the repressive mystification of desire. So, if I continue to spread everything out on the same plane, I say let’s look for examples where desire does indeed appear as a process unfolding itself on the body without organs taken as field of immanence or of consistency of desire. And here we could place the ancient Chinese warrior; and again, it is we Westerners who interpret the sexual practices of the ancient Chinese and Taoist Chinese, in any case, as a delay of enjoyment. You have to be a filthy European to understand Taoist techniques like that. It is, on the contrary, the extraction of desire from its pseudo-finality of pleasure in order to discover the immanence proper to desire in its belonging to a field of consistency. It is not at all to delay enjoyment.   This is not unrelated to the Cowardice of the Knockout piece I wrote:  
  • The Latest From Open Topics Forum

    • In my experience, 1 pair of gloves is fine (14oz in my case, so I can spar safely), just air them out between training (bag gloves definitely not necessary). Shinguards are a good idea, though gyms will always have them and lend them out- just more hygienic to have your own.  2 pairs of wraps, 2 shorts (I like the lightweight Raja ones for the heat), 1 pair of good road running trainers. Good gumshield and groin-protector, naturally. Every time I finish training, I bring everything into the shower (not gloves or shinnies, obviously) with me to clean off the (bucketsfull in my case) of sweat, but things dry off quickly here outside of the monsoon season.  One thing I have found I like is smallish, cotton briefs for training (less cloth, therefore sweaty wetness than boxers, etc.- bring underwear from home- decent, cotton stuff is strangely expensive here). Don't weigh yourself down too much. You might want to buy shorts or vests from the gym(s) as (useful) souvenirs. I recommend Action Zone and Keelapan, next door, in Bangkok (good selection and prices):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Action+Zone/@13.7474264,100.5206774,17z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!2sAction+Zone!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2!3m5!1s0x30e29931ee397e41:0x4c8f06926c37408b!8m2!3d13.7474212!4d100.5232523!16s%2Fg%2F1hm3_f5d2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
    • Hey! I totally get what you mean about pushing through—it can sometimes backfire, especially with mood swings and fatigue. Regarding repeated head blows and depression, there’s research showing a link, especially with conditions like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). More athletes are recognizing the importance of mental health alongside training. 
    • If you need a chill video editing app for Windows, check out Movavi Video Editor. It's super easy to use, perfect for beginners. You can cut, merge, and add effects without feeling lost. They’ve got loads of tutorials to help you out! I found some dope tips on clipping videos with Movavi. It lets you quickly cut parts of your video, so you can make your edits just how you want. Hit up their site to learn more about how to clip your screen on Windows and see how it all works.
    • Hi all, I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be traveling to Thailand soon for just over a month of traveling and training. I am a complete beginner and do not own any training gear. One of the first stops on my trip will be to explore Bangkok and purchase equipment. What should be on my list? Clearly, gloves, wraps, shorts and mouthguard are required. I would be grateful for some more insight e.g. should I buy bag gloves and sparring gloves, whether shin pads are worthwhile for a beginner, etc. I'm partiularly conscious of the heat and humidity, it would make sense to pack two pairs of running shoes, two sets of gloves, several handwraps and lots of shorts. Any nuggets of wisdom are most welcome. Thanks in advance for your contributions!   
    • Have you looked at venum elite 
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      1.4k
    • Total Posts
      11.2k
×
×
  • Create New...