Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu

Grading is not something that's used in Thailand gyms, although it's been considered by at least one faction of the Thai government as a way to codify the way Muaythai is taught around the world. That's what happened with Taekwondo and Korea made and continues to make a huge amount of money as a result because you have to get certified by the sanctioning authority. Muay Thai does not yet have that, but they are supposedly looking at it because that could be a LOT of money. That said, quite a few gyms in the west use grading as a way to let their students feel like they're progressing. Because it's designed individually by each school, there's no "I'm a green prajeat" that means anything to anyone else, as oppose to established grading systems like in Taekwondo, Karate and Jiujitsu. So, ultimately the answer is that grading in Muay Thai is a western thing, not a Thai thing. And it's not codified so there's no relationship between the grade you get and the grade someone in the next gym over gets. However, that said, if it means something to you, that's worth something in itself. If it doesn't, then don't sweat it.

I loved that PTT"s take on the tale of personal hardship is, "we're all struggling." In the US it's all this story of how everybody else has it easy and the struggling fighter is the isolated case of a solo salmon swimming upsteam. His battle is against the fear of quitting, rather than a "poor me" attitude that underlies a lot of western narratives, even if a lot of those are truly rags-to-riches, amazing tales.

Yes, I feel that the voiceover adds a lot. For me, reading subtitles makes me feel like I'm missing the visual poetry that's happening in real-time with the images because I have to keep looking down to the words. The young man who did the voiceover and made the video is very close to PTT's age as well, so they've grown up together to some degree. Speaking the words of someone you know well is quite lovely.

I wrote a blog post on this subject, including both Layal's question and one I received in my inbox a few weeks ago. It's kind of about the "natural" aggression and non-aggression being not natural at all, as well as why it's so important to address it as a general practice, rather than only working on it in the ring.

Everything in my path of Muay Thai has transformed me as a person, sometimes in very small ways and sometimes in really big ways. I don't think I've become anything that I wasn't already, but rather it has highlighted and strengthened aspects of who I am that were very hidden before, while at the same time quieting down some of the other aspects that used to be more prominent - like not standing up for myself, for example. 10 years ago I'd never even heard of Muay Thai, so what I'd tell myself would be something along the lines of the Terminator 2 mantra: "There is no fate but what you make." I don't think there's any sage advice that I could bestow on my younger self that would be meaningful to the context of my life at that time. I know things now that are important now, but I wouldn't change the path that led me here. I needed to be the person I was in order to be the person I am, including all the bad parts, all the struggles, all the difficulty with being myself. That's not "over," and I don't believe it ever will be, it just changes. But if my future self from 10 years from now showed up and had some kind of advice for me I'd likely tell her to get bent because there's no shortcut to those kinds of realizations in life; you get them when you're ready for them and they only make sense and have meaning when you're in a place to understand and embrace them. Or maybe I've just watched too much Scifi to trust that going back in time is never a good idea :) I did see Tessa vs Lommanee. It was shot by the Thai National Team from up in the stands, so it was pretty far away.

I identify with this problem as well. My good friend Robyn taught me a really long time ago that aggression has to be trained, just like any other skill. That doesn't make it easy and I'm still figuring this out, despite being told and kind of understanding it so long ago. But the larger problem that you mention in your question isn't the aggression issue - don't compare yourself to other people. I used to go nuts over these guys who would come to the camp and train totally half-assed but were super gifted and seemed to be way more fluid, trying more things than I do, fighting in a more advanced way than I was despite having way more experience than they do. I finally figured out that the difference was confidence. Men have a natural gift for confidence, like actual cockiness is a true gift. That's what makes them seem more free. But some of them are made out of paper; building confidence out of not-natural cockiness is like carving stone. It takes a fucking long time and it's frustrating, but it's solid and you keep what you work for. So, step 1: stop comparing. It doesn't help you and it feels shitty. People have different learning arcs, different paths, different drives, different strengths and weaknesses. If you see something working for someone else, figure out why it works and try to steal it for yourself. But don't think, "why them and not me?" It's a worthless line of thought. Believe me. Step 2: practice aggression the same way you practice any skill. You have to break it down, find why it's difficult for you: are you too polite? Are you afraid? What does aggression actually look like? Moving forward, blocking, not backing up, striking more... if you know what it means to you then you can break down the elements and work on bringing them into your training in small pieces. For me, aggression is not be affected by mistakes. So I make a point to laugh if I flinch so I can correct that. Or staying closer to my opponent. You can practice this stuff outside of the ring, too. For me, I'm super shy and feel like I'm bothering people or imposing myself to ask anything - like, very normal stuff: asking directions, asking someone to show me something, ordering a coffee... I'm very unwilling to interact. But I push myself to do those things, because that's part of assertive, confident, and aggressive tendencies as well. I'm not a jerk about it and in the ring you shouldn't feel like you're being a dick just by being aggressive in training. You're helping your training partners by being aggressive, by "acting like" an opponent who does want to hurt them, even if you, personally, don't want to make your training partners and friends uncomfortable. But we've talked a lot on this forum about what a disservice it is when our training partners go too light on us or don't challenge us. Think of it as that you're helping the team, but also know that it's not easy. It feels weird. But do all those small things that, to you, feel and look like aggression: staying close, hitting more often, not backing up, blocking strong instead of kind of as a flinch... Again, I'm still working on this on a daily basis. It's not easy. But it's also not impossible.

That's great! Kevin and I have been talking about this and how the move from VA to NY likely involved a whole new group of organizers. It's bad every year in VA but it must be getting some kind of streamline over years and years of doing it. When I talked to Paul Banasiak the other day he said that the venue was just too small and there was a higher number of people registered.

Wow, that SUCKS. It's kind of a joke that every year the people who go to the WKAs say "this is the worst year yet and I'll never do it again," but, you know, they say it every year. It's always really poorly organized but this sounds like unprecedented shittiness to cancel entire weight divisions due to time constraints! I assume they didn't refund your application fee either... I'm sorry you had to have that kind of disappointment and frustration. It's hard enough finding fights in the US.

It's not confirmed yet, but I may be attending that camp for a few days. :)

Lamnamoon seems to have good clinching and I've seen two of their foreign fighters on Max; they have solid technique. I have no idea if they sponsor fighters or not. Khem has a gym in Khorat (Khao Yai area) which has very good clinch training. I don't know if they have larger fighters though and no idea if they sponsor. I don't think it will be easy to find a gym that will sponsor you that is a small, non-tourist area gym. It's possible that after a number of months training at a smaller, out of the way gym you could discuss it with the owner/manager, if that's something you're able to do.

If it's for an amulet, it's for a specific kind of amulet. Very few are worn at the waist level, definitely none with an image on it.

That's a great example, really. I reckon a lot of women, Thai and western, do not read the rope issue to be illustrative of larger limitations for and attitudes for women. And I do believe that my focus on it has a lot to do with it being a much bigger presence in my experience of training in Thailand than it is for a lot of other western women, due to having trained at Lanna for 2.5 years at the onset of my time here. There were two rings there, a male ring, in which I was not allowed at all, and the "women's ring," which was really just a ring women were allowed in, not actually for women. So, whereas a lot of women only experience the bottom rope when they're getting into the ring to fight, it's a very small part of their experience. This is something they do maybe 20 times. But I got to witness on a twice-daily basis that I was excluded from aspects of training. The men would go into the men's ring for clinching or sparring and I would quite literally be left out of it. When western men who were barely serious about their training and certainly weren't going to fight asked me why I wasn't taking part and I explained why, they were surprised because they'd literally never had to consider it. The didn't even realize I was excluded because they didn't have to think about it. I think, likewise, if you don't have to think about it very often, it seems like a very insignificant thing. That said, I've also noted that both Thais and westerners alike seem to miss the connection between women entering under the bottom rope and women being excluded entirely from the national stadium rings. If you make that connection, the rope becomes far more difficult.

I do applaud how strongly the coach takes issue against the bottom rope. So many people cradle the "tradition" of it without also acknowledging that it is not simply two ways of doing something, but is putting women in their place in a manner that is not valuing that position. I've written about it many times before and I'm conflicted on how I do embrace a lot of those elements that make this practice meaningful, but I also cannot embrace that the meaning is inseparable from women being "lesser than". So yes, flying over the top rope is fucking badass. However, flying in the face of that practice while simultaneously claiming that Thai women aren't agents within the world of Muay, that they're being forced or coerced or exploited in the sport as a layover before - or even just akin to - being forced, coerced and exploited in the Sex Industry... well, fuck you very much. (I've heard this assumption or correlation between female Thai fighters and Thai prostitutes before. This coach WAS saying that Thai women are treated as sex slaves, whatever the hell he means by that, but also amended that part so I reckon he saw how ridiculous that claim was.) His message appears to be "your women aren't very good and aren't worthy opponents, but my western fighter is here to liberate them from the rope issue." At her size, Miriam Nakamoto is not likely to be fighting against many Thai women, and in the World Championships that her coach describes, she indeed didn't face any. So whatever sub-par fighters he alludes to in the "Thai women are forced to train after hours" claim, they're not in direct competition with his fighter. Who is he talking about? I've fought two of the women who are regularly on the Thai National Team and follow most of those who have been on the team over the years, and these women individually have hundreds of fights. They're career fighters who dedicate time and love into the art. They're not at the precipice of prostitution, nor are any of them "afterthoughts." There are a myriad of issues that female fighters, especially Thai women, face in the uphill climb against institutionalized and cultural sexism, but actually identifying those issues specifically is the way to address and correct them - not a general and hyperbolized wash that, quite frankly, dismisses them. Thai women do not get the same money or coverage that men do (same as female fighters in the west); they do not have the same training opportunities, largely speaking (same as in the west); they may have shorter careers or not be able to devote themselves fully to training without also being in school or having a job in order to support themselves (same as in the west); and there is sexual harassment and dis-equal treatment in gyms, promotions, and access to exposure (same as in the west). I don't know that this is a complete thought on my part, really. I agree with Kevin, mostly. Being pro-women as a male coach is awesome and I don't want to wag my finger at it, but I also can't handle the "I love women" message being tethered to the kind of sexist bullshit that this particular argument is attached to.

The factor of narrative is so important. It's such a huge aspect about watching fights, even if it's not codified in a rule book. But the difference between a fighter who is fighting for points, or to "score", versus a fighter who is creating a narrative - it's an entirely different game. At my last fight against Faa Chiangrai, there were two other boys from my gym on the card. The last fight of the night was Alex versus a Thai guy who was probably 2 kg bigger and definitely stronger. The Thai guy was throwing these wicked right-side elbows, just lobbing them at Alex without mercy. They looked so powerful, even though almost 100% of them were blocked by Alex. But they were telling a story. And, unfortunately, they told it better than what Alex was trying to tell. Alex was staying on the outside anyway, he didn't change his approach from the elbows, but because the elbows kept coming and Alex kept staying out, the narrative became that he was staying outside because of the elbows. The elbows were a better story. If Alex had changed, if he'd reversed his tactic, and started closing up the space then the narrative would be that those elbows were impotent. In another example, I watched these two little kids fighting a few cards ago, before my fight. In the first round it looked like a terrible mismatch. It looked like 2 fights versus 30 fights in terms of ring confidence and awareness, and indeed I called a KO within the first 3 rounds. That didn't happen. The kid who seemed such the underdog started to look more competent. By round 4 it was pretty even and the most incredible display of trying to take dominance played out in the ring: the blue kid was launching these leg kicks from a few feet away, like a full on penalty kick in soccer, at this kid's leg. And each time the other kid, red corner, would blast blue in the face with a cross when he kicked. They did this exact same move, with no change and without anything in between other than staring at each other, seven times in a row. Neither of these strikes scores very highly, a leg kick versus a hard punch - each of them have to show effect to be scored at all and by doing the same move over and over again they were both making the argument against the efficacy of the others' strike. It was brilliant. The kid who fought Alex, he was asking over and over again, "these elbows are dominant, do you agree?" And Alex seemed to be agreeing. The two kids doing the same soccer-kick vs. punch move over and over again were asking the same of each other, and neither would agree. But if one of them had landed the last strike, unanswered by the other, he would have won the exchange. That's why a move that doesn't work 10 times might suddenly be the deciding, most dramatic move of the whole fight when it finally does work the 11th time. Or if it works the first time and then never again, but you keep trying to do it and the continued failure changes the narrative to you having deteriorated.

I don't know what the breakdown of their pricing is, but I don't know that those other gyms you mention offer 2 meals and a room in their packages. At Sasiprapa, for example, I remember there being only one room that all the fighters shared above the ring, otherwise you could stay about a 3 minute walk away in an apartment building that - at the time I visited - was pretty rough [edited to add: I do remember that they did have an apartment building across the street, so my notion of where there is to stay there is outdated, I was there a few years ago]. Saengmorakot has shared dorms as far as I've ever seen, not individual apartment rooms, though that too can be wrong. Sitmonchai is not in the city. It's close to the city of Thamaka so you can have access to shopping and things like that, but the actual location of the gym is pretty rural feeling. So it's kind of more "all inclusive" than I'd imagine these other gyms are, which are more within Bangkok (maybe not Kiatphontip... they are pretty out of the way). So, all of that is to say I don't know the price breakdown of all these different gyms, but because of my experience of visiting three of those mentioned (Sasiprapa, Sangmorakot, and Sitmonchai), of those I know Sitmonchai is far more of a community to itself. So these other gyms may be offering fewer meals, shared rather than individual rooms, etc. You can absolutely contact Abigail at Sitmonchai and ask her though. She's very friendly and can break it down for you.

Good luck! Chok dee!

I don't know what the specifics of this custom are, but in practice it is very unusual to refuse the cup. You can just do a deep wai so that your face is down and they might pour the water on you instead, but shaking your head "no" to the water is probably going to be seen as very odd, if not disrespectful.

Hi Priscilla, I've invited women to come and train with me because I feel we all benefit from meeting with and supporting each other. I also have no other women at my gym, so it's a real treat for me when I have women to train with :) Yes, the offer is still open. I'm almost always at the gym, so if you find yourself in Pattaya shoot me a line!

Sorry to reduce your great post down to one point, but I totally relate to this. My trainer wears very long, baggy shorts (he's Thai) and I teep him in the cup ALL THE TIME. Good thing he wears one.

I guess that video was on Facebook. I can't find it either.

Just this morning I had an interesting experience with Pi Nu. He was having me do these "sok glap" (reverse elbow) on the pads, which he sees as a "trick" and wants me to do for two reasons: 1) confidence and 2) I'm fighting in a show that will expect this kind of thing. He had me throw a bunch of them, then kind of muttered that because I'm a westerner this move is good. "When Thai do it, everybody yak yak," he said. He uses "yak yak" to mean gossiping or complaining. How interesting! We hate-watch Max every weekend and the worst fights have just endless spinning back elbows; off-balance, not landing... total crap. But a lot of them. Westerners do most of them, but the Thai fighters have picked it up as well, as a way to try to win the "super bonus," which is extra cash. Pi Nu gave me no explanation for why people would talk shit about Thai fighters for that elbow. I'd assume it's because they never land, so you look like a tool-bag spinning around and ending up with your back taken or off-balance or whatever. That's what the westerners often look like. But given the major complaint of ex-fighters of Pi Nu's age and a bit older, which is the complaint Samart made, that fighters now days just fight enough to win and don't show any technique... well, clearly the flashy and mostly ineffective reverse elbow isn't one of them. I wonder if it's that fighters used to have very distinct styles. Dieselnoi's knees, Yodkhunpon's elbows, Apidej's kicks, or Samart's overall finesse but slick boxing and teeps especially... I can pick out some tendencies in modern fighters, but not like these guys. Maybe what people see now is that there's less distinction. Like how the Ram Muay used to be unique to gyms but now they all pretty much look the same. When I was training with Dieselnoi the other day I asked him what fighters he likes now. He thought about it for a minute (a lot of men his age don't, they just immediately say everybody today sucks), then shook his head and said nobody really. It's a common answer, that fighters now can't hold a candle to the Golden Age. But he gave an interesting addendum to that assessment, which I've never heard from any others like him. He said that before you had these top fighters and champions who had to fight each other - the best fighting the best. He says now you have these great fighters but they're under different promoters, so they don't fight each other. The best are protected from the best. Like how you don't see very many "super fights" in the UFC and none in boxing anymore. There aren't a lot of famous female fighters in Thailand. I can probably count on one hand the very top names and they're usually not in the same weight classes as each other. And those who are, won't fight each other because "we're friends." And their gyms go along with this because of money and reputation, I think. Same reason Anderson Silva and Machida - one weight class apart, it is possible, but they wouldn't do it - wouldn't fight. But if there's no money for top female fighters, then there's no fights for top female fighters. The woman in the photo that Kevin shared above is Mary from Thailand (facing the camera; the woman with her back to the camera is Chinese) and she's a good fighter, well-established, good name, etc. She's 25, which is "old" for a female fighter; it's even a bit old for a male fighter. But fighting in China is good money for a Thai and it happens more or less in a vacuum, so it doesn't matter for her reputation or her career overall. I think the thing that's killing female Muay Thai is that there's nowhere to go. What's killing male Muay Thai is that what used to be really prestigious simply isn't anymore. And as interest by generations of Thais wanes, while interest by westerners picks up, the audience will have great affect on how the aesthetic develops. Sports are living things, they change, and the tendency is always to say that how it used to be was always better. I expect Muay to change and I don't think that's a bad thing. But it's still painful in some ways.

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I realized today that it's been a LONG time since I've had to ask a guy to go harder with me. Lately it's the opposite, where these huge-ass dudes are going pretty hard, given our size disparity. And my coaches are always watching, but they're all, "it's okay." Really?! But today I was sparring with a guy who was maybe 70 kg and I wobbled him with a left hook, which made me SO PROUD of myself because I've been working on that technique. Then I wondered if I should take it down a notch, but he recovered and was like, "good shot." Moral of the story: it's hard to tell where those lines are, but verbal communication helps a ton.

Well that sucks, but just be patient with yourself so you don't re-injure. But you can try to work around it. Have you seen that video of Miriam Nakamoto sitting on a stool and working her hands two days after her knee surgery? Inspiration-ville.

I have experienced this and generally it doesn't last more than a day or two. I've linked it to dehydration and the neck/jaw tension you mentioned. On days after really hard clinching sessions when my neck muscles are weak as a result, I'll have a hard time with this sharp pain with every punch, or a kind of headache that throbs with every strike. Maybe get a massage, do some stretches, and be sure to strengthen up the neck.