[WWE's Alistair Black/Tommy End - Striking Workout]

Fun story. This fella is a professional wrestler from Amsterdam who used to work shows near where I live. Two of my friends who are way into wrestling got to interview him and have photos taken with him for their podcast they were doing at the time. 

He's one of my favourite professional wrestlers because of how convincing his striking is, especially compared to other pro wrestlers. He's got a background in dutch kickboxing, and started kickboxing because he wanted to be a wrestler, but being a kid, he wasn't sure how to start, so he took up martial arts.

He says himself he doesn't have the best technique, but man he's pretty good. I really like how he walks into his switch kick and he gives solid fundamental advice for Sheamus, who as far as I'm aware doesn't have much kickboxing experience. I particularly like how he reminds Sheamus not to fully extend his arm to prevent accidental hyper extension.

Not the sort of stuff we'd usually talk about here, but I thought I'd share it to show how muay thai and kickboxing can cross over into other professions outside of combat sports.

Here's his a combination of kicks, he has to pull them for his opponents safety:

And his very popular finishing move:

 

[Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.]

5 hours ago, LengLeng said:

Apologies this might be slightly off topic. Not a coach, but a woman in a male space, and I reacted to this by Sylvie:

and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness.Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us.

I completely understand where this is coming from, usually spots for women are limited and we all have to compete for that one spot above the glass ceiling. But I also find it unfair. I'm sorry to say, but not all women in a muay thai gyms are cool. There are various types, the hard worker, the one who flirts to get some teaching from the male trainer (no judgement it's an effective strategy), the super hard tough girl who talks to no one and will kick the shit out of your shins (understanding her too) or the "know it all" etc etc. The point is, usually guys have the luxury of having ten other guys as training partners to relate to and train with. Finding their favorite or the asshole they cannot stand. But as a woman you're expected to instantly connect with that other woman who shows up and if she's not cool, you're not being a good "sister". And that sucks. And it's simply the result from having too few other women to train with. And to me that's the most limiting factor being a woman training muay thai. The longing for a female partner to compete with and learn from and then handling the disappointment when she turns out to be not so cool. And that whole pressure of having to get along with a fellow muay ying and to not appear like that woman who likes to be the only woman in a male space.  

My SO has said similar things. There was a lady she used to train with, who would come in with her teenage daughter weekly. The Mum and Daughter didn't always get on and would end up kinda fighting in sparring class. She said that both of them had an attitude problem and after that would be trying to fight EVERYONE in the class in sparring. 

You get rough sparring sessions all the time, but with those two in particular it was toxic - which was a real shame because this was in a woman's only class where there are people who are specifically there to avoid that sort of pigheadedness. 

[Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.]

11 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

One of the things that makes Muay Thai beautiful, and perhaps especially made for women. Thais are small, and in the conception of the art is the thought that it is made for the defeat of larger people. Which is kind of how it made me laugh when someone like Kenshin does breakdowns of Muay Thai fighters beating absolutel6 huge opponents, but then imagine that there are fundamental physical inequalities that categorically bar them from being able, to handle Male opponents. Yeah, 70 pound differences can be overcome...but "bone density"...hmmm

Bone density matters, and in terms of generating power it matters more than pounds of muscle, keep in mind that bone density disparity between men of different sizes isn't as big as you'd think for. Manny Pacquaio's got wrists the same size as Mike Tyson - it's all Tyson's muscle that makes him huge - not that he's inherently much more massive (he's a few inches taller, but less dense), and when it comes to generating force the size and density of your bones absolutely matters, it's why Pacquaio is still able to KO people 7 divisions higher than his original weight class, if he weren't going against a massive reach disadvantage he'd probably have the power to KO middleweights. 

I definitely agree though that Muay Thai is a sport where weight disparities don't matter, unless you are a 125er going against a 160lb guy then you're likely to have a hard time regardless. I think that's because Muay Thai, while no doubt a hard hitting sport, is a marathon, rather than a spring, with less emphasis on punches to the head and more on kicking the body. I think that approach to scoring makes it safer to be a smaller man, like Saenchai for example. His timing is so good that being at a kicking range doesn't hugely matter because he can get out of the way, stay on the end of his opponents kicks and fire back when the kick misses, but if you put Saenchai in a K1 match which favours aggression, a fast pace and more blows to the head and legs, and then he's fighting at that size disadvantage that he's usually comfortable with in Muay Thai, he's going to get mowed over. He wouldn't be dominating a Masato in the same way he can a 150lb thai boxer. 

There is certainly something about the rules and scoring culture of Muay Thai, that allows for those physical inequalities to be nullified somewhat in a way that doesn't exist in boxing, kickboxing or MMA.

 

[Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.]

2 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Andy this is gold.  So interesting about the wide stance for men, and I know the "cat paw" well lol.  Funny that it is universal.  I appreciate you getting so concrete about how men and women actually work in a gym.  Your gym sounds like a great place and I like what you say about the actual "fight in them".  That must be something you can only see under duress, and its beautiful that it has NOTHING to do with gender.  Love it.

Should you ever find yourself in London, you'd be more than welcome to come over and train.  

I think that regardless of athleticism or male or female egos that affect how someone trains and fights, fighting is a human thing. We all do it - so it doesn't come as a surprise to me that men and women are just as scrappy

[Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.]

On 6/5/2019 at 1:56 AM, threeoaks said:

I’d be curious to hear from the coaches in particular how they see differences in male & female athletes, and also what are the main similarities.  I ask this here rather than Sherdog or Reddit cause I’m not begging for an earful of sexism, more an open field of experience & opinion from both men & women & also non-binary people if you’re here.

I am speaking purely from my anecdotal evidence of training and training with men and women. One of my students is a friend of mine, who is a FTM transman who is currently in his first steps of hormone therapy (but he's at the very beginning of his training, so I haven't much to say), I've coached several men and several women. I also say this with the preface that I am not a veteran coach or fighter.

Talking athletically there's not much I can say that any other person won't say - but in terms of actually coaching and interacting, here are my observations: 

I tend to find that women are more comfortable kicking to the body and head straight out of the gate regardless of experience. I think that is because of the popularity of dancing, which is so popular among little girls here - I do not tend to find that flexibility ever leaves you. I've always found men have more speed and power but also more ego. Ego's not a bad thing either, and I should stress that nearly every man I've trained has been a lovely well adjusted person, but I've found men are more likely to argue with what I'm teaching them, and men are more likely to get frustrated with themselves if they make a mistake or are unable to complete exercises. 

I've never had a woman argue with me about whether or not a technique is right or wrong and while I'm sure women will be frustrated by the training or by me, I've not known them to outwardly show it. I also find that women tend to be shy and it usually takes a while to build up their confidence on the pads as they're getting to know you. Men just start smashing the pads as hard as they can regardless of form. I usually have to tell guys to calm down, and tell girls to hit harder. 

With beginners I particularly notice that men are more likely to stand quite wide, and swing from far away as though they're imitating a boxer. Women I find often do what I call a 'cat paw' where they hit with their hand coming palm first from their stance. I do not know why this is.

Obviously this isn't the be all and end all, everybody is different but these are the observations I've had. 

The women I've trained, trained for fitness and to learn a martial art and self defence for fun - and when you ask them if they want to fight the answer you get will really vary. Every guy I've ever coached (many of whom are teenager) wants to fight but those that actually DO fight are few. 

At my gym the fight team coach is a woman (I don't want to name drop her here for privacy reasons, but she is well known for defeating Julie Kitchen + Joanna Jedrzejczyk)  - and many of our more notable fighters have been women (Claire Haigh, Geraldine O'Callaghan, Chalih Bassanah etc.) most of whom were there before I joined, and also tough as nails. The main thing between men and women that I think is the same is the actual fight in them - and I don't mean wanting to compete, but when they're training to push through and in competition their grit when it comes to throw down. I've seen men and women give up, and I've seen men and women giving it their absolute all. That's is what is in my view most important! 
 

[Suggestions for Krus and Legends to Film for the Muay Thai Library]

On 6/5/2019 at 6:56 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It may be possible. Youssef and his brother used to train at Sylvie's gym, back in the day, I believe. There are connections.

That would be the dream there! Both of them are great and technical. I'd be interested in seeing a few farang legends in there like Skarbowsky being the obvious one, but Youssef in particular is a fighter with such an aggressive, forward moving style - the way he mixes up his boxing with fake teeps, knees and sweeps I think would be great for Sylvie's style in particular.

Not that she doesn't already do those things, but I can really see his approach geling well with Sylvie.

[Suggestions for Krus and Legends to Film for the Muay Thai Library]

Oh! I'm a mad man, how did I read this thread and not say Youssef Boughanem. First ever farang to hold Lumpinee and Rajadamnern titles simultaneously. That'd be my number 1 suggestion!

[To spin or not to spin | Training Spinning Techniques]

To spin a varying amount of rotations. I come from a muay thai background where you don't see many spin kicks, and from there have dabbled in Combat Sambo, where you definitely see them, and I've begun training Shaolin for fun, the combat sport variant of which is Sanda.

I think you should be proficient with at least a spinning backfist or elbow. Obviously there's no real need to use spinning techniques offensively - although mixing a back spin kick and a wheel kick together are VERY useful - but if your leg is caught and parried the quickest way to get your momentum back is to take that spin and go straight into a back elbow or fist. Artem Levin was particularly proficient at that. When you know you have something like that up your sleeve, it lets you kick with more confidence too. You don't have to go to it every time your kick get's parried, but it's usually not a bad idea to throw it, especially when you know their guard will be down after just parrying your kick. 

That being said, I don't think reliance on spinning is a good thing unless you have multiple weapons. You'll see Sanda guys (despite kicking being far riskier in Sanda than it is in Muay Thai) routinely incorporating double attacks between spinning back kicks, wheel kicks, backfists etc and it works because that turn becomes a chamber where you can't predict what is coming. It's also why we've seen quite a few good Thai's be KO'd in China. 

That being said the approach to training in Sanda comes with the forms and Qi Gong that grants you the flexibility and mobility to throw those kicks with ease, that you don't really get in Muay Thai training. You see some Muay Thai purists act as though spinning techniques don't work, and that's categorically wrong, it's more that Muay Thai kicking is so based in power that you see great fighters kick in a way that most other martial arts would view as over commitment, I don't think those heavy swings of kicks necessarily lead themselves to spinning technique. The Thai approach to fighting just doesn't lend itself to spinning techniques in the same way martial arts rooted in Kung Fu (Shaolin, Karate, Taekwondo etc.) do.  I think unless you're actively training a form of Kung Fu or Karate alongside your Muay Thai training regularly, I'm not sure spinning kicks are a good idea - because learning the technique of a spin kick in a vacuum doesn't teach you the timing or type of footwork you'll need to make that technique effective. While Sanda has a lot of similarity to Muay Thai, there's a definite "springiness" to it that makes explosion into spinning techniques more unpredictable. 

TL;DR: if you're going to throw spinning kicks spend a substantial amount of time in a martial art/combat sport that actually makes use of them - because you'll just telegraph them if you try to bust them out with a Muay Thai rhythm.

[Hard vs "Technical" Sparring - Uses and Control]

6 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I like your point about partners being dishonest with each other when they go too light. I've used the comparison many times that it's like tossing a ball at someone so gingerly that their ability to hit it with a bat is impossible. You have to pitch the f***ing ball, man. If you go too light, it distorts the technique so horridly that you're doing your partner a terrible disservice and they can't properly learn how to respond, block, etc.

Interesting to me, also, is how different these two video clips look (to my eyes), despite them both being a "light sparring" example. The first video with Liam Harrison looks far too light to me. Like, you can only learn how to do tricks in that kind of sparring. There's nothing sincere about the basic movements and strikes, although the tricks and sweeps are slow enough that nobody is going to get hurt. Whereas with Pakorn and Sangmanee, the basics are all solid and the playfulness is present without it being "performed." But hey, my eyes.

I think the reason Liam might be a bit too light is because in that session Liam was the teacher and the larger guy, so he might not have felt comfortable going any harder in that context. Whereas Pakorn and Sangmanee are both strong stadium fighters who are sparring for training, Liam is a stadium fighter working with a guy with a lot less experience

[Hard vs "Technical" Sparring - Uses and Control]

To add a little bit more:

I think it depends on your specific situation. A lot of guys would look at Idris training at Double K Gym and think he's being a douchebag sparring partner here, smacking Luke Whelan as hard as he possibly can - but in the case of Idris he was training for a debut professional fight against an experienced opponent and had only a year to do it in (coming from no experience).

I find this sparring session interesting because it was clearly rough, but I find it technical at the same time. There were a few key techniques that Idris kept working on within this session and he was being tested against a champion who was seeking to tire him out and make him work late into the rounds. 

 

[Hard vs "Technical" Sparring - Uses and Control]

I ultimately went with hard sparring, under the assumption that most people who would use this board are probably training in the West - and in my view if you're training in the West and aiming to fight, you're not going to get nearly as much ring time to get used to the intensity of a fight so that hard sparring is a must.

That being said...

For me the ideal sparring is technical, with a slightly slower pace, but with strong contact to the body and light contact to the head. When I see people in my gym sparring technically, I usually find that they're being too light, not being honest with each other and in doing that they don't learn the danger of a fight.  Ideal sparring for me looks like this:

 

Or this:

 

 

When it comes to hard sparring, I think it's completely appropriate to bash people hard in the body and legs if they signed up for it. But I don't think hard contact to the head is ever really appropriate. A fighter should learn to defend his head through strong drilling and light sparring - never through heavy sparring.

I think people read the words hard sparring and they think of something like the Groenhart brothers going to war:

 

When it should be more like this:

 

[Suggestions for Krus and Legends to Film for the Muay Thai Library]

Not a legend of the sport yet, but I would be fascinated to see you work with Rodtang Jitmuangnon he's got that Muay Mat style... but with teeps. 

[What is Your Favorite Technique?]

I love knee strikes, and I like to think of myself as a knee guy - but when reality hits me in the face, I'd say I'm not great at getting into kneeing range, but I have a decent southpaw right teep that I rely on. That combined with being comfortable throwing punches in combination and on the counter are what I'd say I really like doing!

[The 'UK Muay Thai Kick' / The Golden Kick - Differences?]

3 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It doesn't elevate to the same degree that the Golden Kick that I see among the top fighters of Thailand does. His explanation of kicking "up" and then more or less twisting it in is what it looks like when they do it, but it's not two separate parts, which his is. It's like his has a joint and the Golden Kick doesn't... it kind of bends. When Karuhat does it, it's like his foot traces the line of the opponent's body, right up the side, before bashing inward. But you never see it take that turn toward the body. You can see that moment in the video demonstration, as well as the fight examples included therein. Almost like a word that can be pronounced as either one syllable or two.

That's interesting. Is Karuhat's kick functionally more like a stereotypical muay thai kick then, but with a much narrower arc? That might be the distinction of why his comes up and over in a narrow arc rather than in a two step more karate like motion. There's a good chance that there is some karate influence in the UK kick, seeing as how karate kicks are chambered in a 1 - 2 

[The 'UK Muay Thai Kick' / The Golden Kick - Differences?]

9 hours ago, Coach James Poidog said:

Great video explanation on what I was taught as well. My coach at the time used a wall to help keep the leg from swinging out in an arc. Ive used walls, cage walls, etc to help teach it. 

That's the same drill I use with my younger students!

[The 'UK Muay Thai Kick' / The Golden Kick - Differences?]

7 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

The explanation sounds a lot like the Golden Kick, although the execution looks a bit different to me. That might go down to experience. The "up the side of the body and then twist to turn it over" is very much a Golden Kick. 

It would be interesting to me to learn where this pedagogy originated, for it to be so widespread in the UK. I don't think we have a "standard" way of teaching the kick in the US and a lot of the kicks I do see are more "roundhouse", akin to Karate. I reckon that would be from the backgrounds of the teachers in all these different schools, a lot of whom come from Tae Kwon Do or Karate and then turned to Muay Thai after many many years in those other arts. So it's hard to change what your body knows already. Did the UK not have a Tae Kwon Do and Karate phase the way the US did?

This is more hypothesis than fact - but it's quite hard to find a Muay Thai Gym in the UK that isn't aware of every other Muay Thai Gym in the country. Because England in particular is so small (for comparisons sake it's a little bit bigger than Florida geographically) you can't really get too far away without finding the next gym along. Every coach seems to know each other and a lot of the gyms have coaches that were taught by coaches from other gyms. 

That and in London there are quite a few Thai coaches who are teaching. My coach Thoethai fought from about 1972/1973 on wards so he had a lot of the very old technique. Double K Gym has Rittijak Kaewsamrit on the their coaching team, Jompop Khiatphontip etc. 

I am not sure how it compares to America's development but Muay Thai hit the UK in the 70s, it's always been a niche thing, but I think something in the time that the martial art started taking off over here had something to do with it. The UK did have a karate boom and Sken's influence over the scene may have something to do with it, as like Toddy he wasn't a muay thai fighter - so his TKD background could have had some influence too!

 

Out of interest, what is it in application of this kick that looks different to you? I can almost see it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[The 'UK Muay Thai Kick' / The Golden Kick - Differences?]

 So a little bit of background - most UK in the Muay Thai is informed by the few influential coaches who trained out in Thailand and brought Muay Thai back with them (usually after fighting them in kickboxing) and Master Sken, who like Master Toddy was a TKD guy who sort of knew muay thai a little bit then packaged it as Thaikwondo and begun to teach it in the UK some 40 years ago. 

I was taught by Thoethai Srikrotriam - a Thai stadium fighter from the 70s/80s and he taught me via watching me train and occasionally correcting things he didn't like until I got to where I am today. The way we are usually shown to kick by the English coaches (several of whom have been taught by my teacher) is very similar to how it's taught in this video. To my eyes that looks pretty much the same as the Golden Kick, but not quite as slick as the sort you'd see from Karuhat, Sagat etc. 

Wondered if anyone else would like to have a look and see how it measures up to what they understand of the golden age kick!