WPMF Champ Duwandawnoy LukKlongtan vs Haru Tajima

[cjsreport]

WPMF Mini Flyweight Champ, 47.7kg, Duwandawnoy LukKlongtan will be facing number 4 ranked Haru Tajima on 5/31 in Okinawa, Japan.

Haru Tajima is 17-3. She holds two wins over Chiharu who has 3 wins over Little Tiger. She's also 1-1 against Saya Ito.

It should be a good fight, plus its always nice to keep track of what is happening with the titles ect.

 

 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

WPMF Mini Flyweight Champ, 47.7kg, Duwandawnoy LukKlongtan will be facing number 4 ranked Haru Tajima on 5/31 in Okinawa, Japan.

 

So this is for the title Charlie? Duwandawnoy just won the belt and now faces the 4th ranked competitor?

[cjsreport]

It is for the title

[cjsreport]

So this is for the title Charlie? Duwandawnoy just won the belt and now faces the 4th ranked competitor?

 

Is this not common in Thailand?

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Is this not common in Thailand?

 

Hi Charlie, btw I love all the work you do, I follow you through Sylvie. The WPMF seems to do a lot of "Interim" World Championship titles in Thailand, which seems to mean that they just want to have a belt fight among top fighters, as a promotion for the show.. I'm not even sure of the status of these titles. I assume though that when the real belt is itself up for grabs that it would be between the top two ranked fighters. Honestly though, I've not seen many WPMF belts change hands. But recently Tanonchanok, who had held the Light Flyweight belt for more than 2 years just fought and lost it to Kwankao LukKlongtan who I think was the number 1 challenger at the time. It seems odd to have a Thai champion fly to Japan to fight the 4th ranked challenger when the 1st ranked challenger is a Thai in Thailand. But really anything can be expected. That's why I ask if it was for the championship belt, I wasn't sure. If so, interesting that Duwandawnoy has to defend her belt so fast after Tanonchanok held onto it for a very long time without fighting much.

 

It does feel like the WPMF is getting itself together a bit, trying to get their titles updated.

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I have noticed that it seems like the WPMF likes to have all these Interim Titles so that they could market a bunch of champions. I imagine what is going on in this situation is a money one. Haru is a pretty popular fighter, she was selected by Erika Kamimura to be in her retirement exhibition. The problem is she lives in Okinawa. As a result, not a lot of promotions are willing to fly her to the main island for fights. 

 

Before her, Pancrase was attempting to get into the Okinawa market and invested in Kikuyo Ishikawa, a mma fighter from the same gym as Haru. Ishikawa became pretty popular in Okinawa but then after she was injured badly in a fight, she started a family and retired. So what I think is happening, is this new promotion is picking up where Pancrase left off and is wanting to turn Haru into more of a star. So they are willing to fly a champion over, hoping that Haru will beat her. With the exchange rates, I imagine it is hard for Duwandawnoy to turn down the offer. And I imagine that the WPMF is ok with it since Haru is the Japanese WPMF Champion.

 

I agree that it does seem like they are getting more organized. I can remember attempting to track who the champion was and who they had fought for it or if the person listed on the site was actually still the champion.

 

Thanks for the compliment, I've enjoyed reading your posts on Sylvie's blog as well. I cannot imagine the amazing stuff you two see on a daily basis.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I imagine what is going on in this situation is a money one. Haru is a pretty popular fighter, she was selected by Erika Kamimura to be in her retirement exhibition. The problem is she lives in Okinawa. As a result, not a lot of promotions are willing to fly her to the main island for fights. 

 

Before her, Pancrase was attempting to get into the Okinawa market and invested in Kikuyo Ishikawa, a mma fighter from the same gym as Haru. Ishikawa became pretty popular in Okinawa but then after she was injured badly in a fight, she started a family and retired. So what I think is happening, is this new promotion is picking up where Pancrase left off and is wanting to turn Haru into more of a star. So they are willing to fly a champion over, hoping that Haru will beat her. With the exchange rates, I imagine it is hard for Duwandawnoy to turn down the offer. And I imagine that the WPMF is ok with it since Haru is the Japanese WPMF Champion.

 

I find this stuff endlessly interesting. So much happens far away and seemingly behind closed doors. Can you tell me Charlie, is the WPMF Japanese owned? Or Thai? Do you have any idea?

[cjsreport]

It seems to be owned and sponsored by Thai people. Who knows what goes on behind the scenes though. The Japanese model for success in most combat sports, which Korea is now imitating, is to bring over a foreign fighter by giving them high pay and the chance to go abroad. That way you ensure that the crowd will be behind who you want to make a star.

 

There are a lot of Thai coaches and trainers in Japan, which is probably why there always seems to be a Japanese girl somewhere in the rankings. Little Tiger, Erika Kamimura, Shoot Boxing, Rika are all somehow connected to either a Thai gym or Thai trainer.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

There are a few things that make me wonder whether it is Japanese owned. For instance it seems that when Thai girls go and fight there, and are clinch fighters, they seem to be prone to losing, with judging being done in a kind of non-Thai way (we know that Japanese female fighters tend to be poor in the clinch). It suggests that in Japan there is a more Japanese-fighter style bias in judging? Thais are pretty nationalistic, and still sore at kickboxing being stolen from them (some may say) it's hard to believe that a Thai organization would have so many Japanese champions in their national sport. They would find a way to stack the deck, I assume. But perhaps it is a business-first model, and they make money from Japanese followers. It could explain why there are WPMF Japanese country champions. I don't remember the WPMF having any other country champions, not even WPMF Thailand champions (perhaps I am wrong?)

I also found it curious, though it is a different organization, that Little Tiger came to Thailand to fight Faa Chiang Rai who seemed to win that fight in a very "Thai" style WBC International belt fight, but the decision was awarded to Little Tiger, on Thai soil. Faa fought that fight in a text-book backwards fighting Thai femur way, perhaps you would disagree.

That felt oddly political, as if Little Tiger was being protected, which isn't a suprise as she's a high profile champion, except that it was in Thailand. Faa Chiang Rai seemed to come out of nowhere to fight her (we knew who she was). But now Faa Chiang Rai is the 2nd ranked WPMF Miniflyweight, a weight class that is actually above her natural weight class, she is very small, putting her out of Little Tiger's weight category. So odd.  It seems somehow that Japanese female Muay Thai fighters are a bit favored by the bodies at large. Not to say I don't love them, and love seeing Japanese fighters getting shine. It's just a feeling one gets. The fights between Little Tiger and Pizza are another curious example (though I never saw their fight in Japan). Pizza kind of destroyed Little Tiger in Thailand (WMC I think), after losing to her in Japan a few months before. Just owned her in the clinch. Little Tiger drew with Sosci (Italian), another clinch fighter, in Japan, when it would seem that she would probably have a big clinch advantage. Because so many of these fights are unseen, it's hard to tell, but the WPMF has a very strong Japanese flavor at times.

[cjsreport]

I feel like Little Tiger is a strange situation. When I lived in Japan, she seemed to be more of a novelty above average fighter. People liked the fact that a famous pro-wrestler gave her her name. She performed well but was never able to beat the top tier in Japan. Then she started fighting a bunch of fighters non-Japanese fighters. I feel like that her career is very closely guarded by her gym, her coach is a Thai promoter. However, LadyGo has informed me that she looked very good in her last fight, so who knows what is going on.

I imagine the number of Japanese women that fight for WPMF Titles ect. relates to money and proximity. Thai fighters probably find the offer to fight in Japan to tempting to resist and vice verca. 

Judging is in Japan is very unique. Japanese do not like to score round to round. They prefer to score the fight progression. With regards to clinching, I imagine that since most of these judges are probably from boxing or karate, clinching is not highly valued to them. As a result, clean punches and kicks are scored highly. (Little Tiger throws a ton of kicks). With regards to certain fighters there could always be some sort of underworld element behind the scenes as well, with regards to gambling ect. Also, I wouldn't put it past some refs to break up clinches early ect. in Japan.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

I love the history of Little Tiger Charlie. Things I could never know. A big fan of hers, though I haven't seen enough fights to make a solid judgement. Her technique is beautiful. As to throwing a lot of kicks, yes, these things score in Thai scoring too, but she throws a lot of low kicks and these are not really points in Thai scoring, unless they start to distort the opponent.

 

Japanese do not like to score round to round. They prefer to score the fight progression. With regards to clinching, I imagine that since most of these judges are probably from boxing or karate, clinching is not highly valued to them. As a result, clean punches and kicks are scored highly. (Little Tiger throws a ton of kicks).

 

Thai scoring, if you do not know, is also not round by round. The first two rounds really don't score except in context. It is all about progression. But in Thai scoring punching is devalued, unless it becomes effective. Kicks score more or less whether they have effect or not, as long as they are above the waist, if I had to generalize. Let me ask, and this could be a big difference. In Thailand the fighter going backwards is often seen as in the lead, defending their lead. In Japan is the Japanese fighter seen as the leader because they are the aggressor (as in Western fighting)? The way a retreating fighter is judged (generally) is a big miscommunication between Thai vs westerner fights. How do they regard that in Japan?

[cjsreport]

But in Thai scoring punching is devalued, unless it becomes effective. Kicks score more or less whether they have effect or not, as long as they are above the waist, if I had to generalize. Let me ask, and this could be a big difference. In Thailand the fighter going backwards is often seen as in the lead, defending their lead. In Japan is the Japanese fighter seen as the leader because they are the aggressor (as in Western fighting)? The way a retreating fighter is judged (generally) is a big miscommunication between Thai vs westerner fights. How do they regard that in Japan?

 

This may be the big difference then. Japanese judges score clean punches and kicks. As far as fighting backwards, to make a broad generalization, Japanese judges favor fighters who are attempting to finish. If a fighter is nailing another fighter with counters, the judges are going to favor them, but I do not imagine they would favor a fighter who appeared to be retreating as opposed to the pursuer. My impression of Japanese fights across all combat sports, in general, has been that there is a go out on your shield kind of attitude. That attitude is also generally rewarded. Japanese fans and judges in general love fighters who in their minds leave it all in the ring. What I imagine is happening is that while both systems tend to look at the fight as a whole, the Thai system seems to be I'm beating you now come and get me whereas the Japanese system seems to favor a I'm beating you do something about it. Both favor a progression but probably look to the final rounds of a fight differently. 

 

Over the board, Japanese judges are very indecisive. I've never seen so many draws before. An example that comes to mind is Rena vs. Erika, which penalty deductions aside, would have been a draw.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Japanese judges favor fighters who are attempting to finish. If a fighter is nailing another fighter with counters, the judges are going to favor them, but I do not imagine they would favor a fighter who appeared to be retreating as opposed to the pursuer. My impression of Japanese fights across all combat sports, in general, has been that there is a go out on your shield kind of attitude.

 

Then this is a HUGE difference. For instance in the Little Tiger vs Faa Chiang Rai fight I could see that a western style judge (or a Japanese judge, now) could give Little Tiger points for being the advancing, striking fighter. But Faa Chiang Rai is fighting under a different assumption. She is fighting a Thai style fight. She is countering with kicks above the waist, not a lot, but enough to establish a point lead, and then she is just spinning the rest of the fight, defending that lead. I'm sure she was shocked she lost, it shows on her face. The big surprise, at least for me, is that this was in Thailand. The go out on your shield attitude is appreciated in Thai scoring, but ONLY if you establish dominance. If you become the chaser and you do not catch and punish you then can be read as desperate. Instead Thais (generally) esteem calm, grace under pressure.

This creates real problems when Thais and westerners (or Japanese, I assume) fight. A Thai might very well be happy to let an opponent chase them. It's part of the game. But outside of Thai scoring that opponent might be gaining points for aggression, for showing "heart". Basically two fighters can be fighting different fights, under different assumptions. Little Tiger may advance because this is "good". Her Thai opponent, like Faa, might retreat, because this is good. Each fighter assumes that the other is in a deficit. Of course the big problem with this is that if you don't realize you are behind, you can't make possible adjustments to win. There are Thai fighters who fight advancing, and Sylvie does this 100%, but when you fight like that you are assumed to be behind, generally. You have to catch and punish your opponent. If the fight stays balanced, you can usually lose.

[cjsreport]

Naturally take what I said as a broad generalization. If a fighter is moving forward and getting tagged without doing any damage themselves, then they are going to be looked at as desperate. It depends on what the retreating fighter is doing.

It does create a lot of problems. A lot of people are wary about coming to Japan to fight, I notice this more in MMA, because they don't understand how the judges score fights. (i.e. that not every round has to be 10-9 for someone). This became somewhat of an issue with several of Rin Nakai's fights.

Tara Larosa thought she won the fight because she out struck Nakai earlier in the fight, but the judges gave the fight to Nakai based off of a submission attempt near the end of the fight. A similar situation arose when Megumi Fujii went to fight in the U.S.

That being said, I often feel that foreign fighters are under informed when traveling to fight abroad. Especially when there are so many unspoken/assumed factors to the judging. It is upsetting to see fighters lose a fight they thought they had clearly won, and would have under the system they are accustomed to. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

Sounds like Japanese scoring is an amalgam - maybe even a perfect amalgam (?) - of Thai and Western scoring.

[cjsreport]

Sounds like Japanese scoring is an amalgam - maybe even a perfect amalgam (?) - of Thai and Western scoring.

 

haha it is far from perfect. She is a cruel mistress

[Rosy]

Japanese scoring can be really strange - the 10 point must system is pretty universal but I have seen Japanese judges scoring less for each fighter in a round ..... like the former  gymnastic or diving scoring where only the perfect performance gets a 10. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The highlights of the fight: