The Metaphysics of Muay Thai: Or, Why Muay Thai is the Greatest Artform in the World

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

35 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

I think part of the problem here is you are primarily talking about tae kwon do because of that book

It's not so much TKD, but in that book tracing the history of Karate itself, and how far it came from it's actual martial roots. It passed through a bottleneck in which almost all of its fighting context was removed, compressed into kata and Budo practices. It became quite rarified. And then modern Karate all descended from that bottleneck. I have some problems with this Ur-sourcing, this abstraction in its DNA. Then, it developed along various lines, each of them incorporating varying aspects of fighting, but each of those aspects also quite codified and restricted. For me this heritage of development means that there is a highly mediated relationship to the full contact fighting space that arts like Thailand's Muay Thai or western boxing were shaped by much more directly, as they developed through 10,000s and 10,000s of iterations of fighting in a very challenged fighting space. Altering the fighting space, the fear zone, providing safe passage or landing spots, really changes the metaphysical quality of what it means to relate to and stay in that space. This is just my opinion of course, but I find these difference qualitative.

[threeoaks]

3 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It's not so much TKD, but in that book tracing the history of Karate itself, and how far it came from it's actual martial roots. It passed through a bottleneck in which almost all of its fighting context was removed, compressed into kata and Budo practices. It became quite rarified. And then modern Karate all descended from that bottleneck. I have some problems with this Ur-sourcing, this abstraction in its DNA. Then, it developed along various lines, each of them incorporating varying aspects of fighting, but each of those aspects also quite codified and restricted. For me this heritage of development means that there is a highly mediated relationship to the full contact fighting space that arts like Thailand's Muay Thai or western boxing were shaped by much more directly, as they developed through 10,000s and 10,000s of iterations of fighting in a very challenged fighting space. Altering the fighting space, the fear zone, providing safe passage or landing spots, really changes the metaphysical quality of what it means to relate to and stay in that space. This is just my opinion of course, but I find these difference qualitative.

Makes sense.  Appreciate the clarification.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

10 minutes ago, threeoaks said:

Can you please describe some of the rule changes?

IFMA is quite different than Thailand's Muay Thai, so much so that Thai athletes were regularly befuddled by the scoring. I guess the way to say it is IFMA is kind of a compromise between Thailand's Muay Thai and International Kickboxing aesthetics, designed to invite International participation and ultimately success. Even wearing headgear changes the fight space, but the differences are numerous. It would be almost impossible to export Thailand's Muay Thai to the rest of the world and have it be comprehensible. I think IFMA did a pretty good job translating it all so it can graft onto western participation, but its a very different thing, imo.

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

The Psychology of the Space

I've had some people tell me that they don't quite understand what I mean by "fight space" or the gap. If you position the two fighters it's simply the space that falls between them. In a sculpture it could be called the negative space, the space where no material is, the hollow space between them.

But, visually what it is and its psychological import comes out of how the brain represents the body to itself, in a kind of virtual space. It's what allows us to complete physical tasks without looking, or be able to feel the end of a point of a pencil, as if it is an extension of your fingers. It's our mapping of space, and ourselves in it.

In the sci-fi movie Dune there is a great little fight scene which depicts elements of this physio-psychological space, as in this sci-fi world there are protective force fields in hand to hand combat. These force field zones invoke our own zone of protective sensitivity, the dangers we feel instinctively when too close. Interestingly, in the scene, the way the shield is defeated is by moving the blade slowly. This can be related to the use of tempo in fighting, and in really high level fighting the delay, moving off-beat, which is something I'd love to explore a little in a future post. This matches up with the metrical meanings of how caesura is used in poetry, coincidentally enough, the way caesura, or gaps work against anticipated rhythm:

watch it here

Here there are two envelopes, the proximities that surround a single body. The gap or fight space is composed, in a way, in the area where these envelopes overlap. The movie scene maybe allows us to think about our heightened sense of space, around our selves, and how when moving through the gap it isn't just bodies clashing, but it is also the virtual efference copy of our motor actions, and a kind of halo body of that sensitive space that surrounds us, as both social and predatory beings in the world.

 

[Jeremy Stewart]

22 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

wasn't

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kendo-guide.com/what-is-kokoro-the-concept-of-kokoro.html&ved=2ahUKEwjE--Lj4vziAhUFeysKHXMhCsEQFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1E3zO6B77oGjt_g4_-9dYb

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://qz.com/946438/kokoro-a-japanese-word-connecting-mind-body-and-spirit-is-also-driving-scientific-discovery/&ved=2ahUKEwjE--Lj4vziAhUFeysKHXMhCsEQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3nzimbsghZTosfqdDooWIj

One is how the concept relates to Kendo. I put it there for a martial aspect. The second one is far more interesting. For me, the concept of kokoro relates to the void or gap. It's in this place you find your fears and fight ( the fight can be any form ), you use them to your benefit. Your kokoro can be many other things as applied to life in general as it in it's simplest form is a meld of mind, heart, body. You can view life from kokoro,  the centre of things, the void and decision making becomes more of an intuitive thing, where right or wrong in the conventional sense, may not be the answer you come out with. I think in the second link if I sent you the right one, Japanese apply their view aided of course with an innate understanding of kokoro to such as robotics. 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Jeremy Stewart
Left out a word

[Jeremy Stewart]

22 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

wow, interesting. Do you have any kind of links to where I can look through that word? I did a quick Google and wasn't sure if I was finding the right stuff. I'd love to follow that path a bit.

I'm sure you'll it fascinating.  I've been aware of the concept for a long time now. My understanding of it as it relates directly to me grows a bit year by year, little by little. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

14 minutes ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

You can view life from kokoro,  the centre of things, the void and decision making becomes more of an intuitive thing, where right or wrong in the conventional sense, may not be the answer you come out with.

I don't really find the notion of the gap or the null in either of the links you provide, in fact kokoro feels very different. It feels like it's the beating core of ourselves, the wholeness or force. This is what is often experienced as threatened by the fighting gap in front of us, and why we take distance, from all things. But...I will say that it makes sense that if you dive deep into kokoro you might discover the keys to the void, or that the void and fear in front of you is a key to your heart or consciousness. But I think maybe this is kind of an extrapolation of the concept? Not something that people mean by it? It would be like saying that the English word "heart" implies "nothingness"...well, maybe, in a very profound way, but only to very few people. Would that be fair?

What I find interesting about the gap, the fear-space, is that you don't even have to be profound to think about it. Everyone understands what this is. In fact I assume every organism has some experience of this, somehow. If someone stands too close to you when they are talking, you can feel "the gap". Is this kokoro? Maybe in a very philosophical way?

[Jeremy Stewart]

3 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

But...I will say that it makes sense that if you dive deep into kokoro you might discover the keys to the void, or that the void and fear in front of you is a key to your heart or consciousnes

That is the key. At least as I comprehend Kokoro.  I saw similarities to caesura in a more abstract way. The metrical pause as a simily to dropping into kokoro. This connection helped me fully appreciate what you wrote you about. As I could relate to it way better. I looked at the gap as it's own kokoro. 

[Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu]

1 minute ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

The metrical pause as a simily to dropping into kokoro.

oh, that is very, very cool.

[threeoaks]

On 6/20/2019 at 5:08 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

And in that aesthetic and those skills it accedes to the highest endeavor of humanity, reaching up to and beyond the poetics of German Philosophy, and Ancient Greek culture itself (considered a root of all the things we think and believe as westerners). And, it presents it all, without dilution, for the common man to see, to witness.

Rereading this AM.  I am struck by this passage:  

 

You are clearly hyper-literate and its both beautiful and strange to have to mediate and explain the caesura and its relation to fear and trembling through Western terms, in a non-Western field.  The great thing is you are translating and not co-opting (one thinks of Picasso getting credit for his radicality by taking from African sculpture; its as if Picasso brought some sculptures to light in the Western world, then lectured on their greatness instead of painting them, or at the very least titled his paintings "after Maliean head"!).