[Daily Drama - Blaming Referees, Gamblers, Meetings and Mahem]

Hmm close call in that last round knockdown. They both seemed very similar but only Thai got counted.... Good heart from both.. Strong mind from the American 

[The Cowardice of the Knockout - Hellenic Greek Concepts of The Beauty of Boxing]

"Tiredness makes a coward of us all" adorned our gym wall.. Perhaps the opposite is true? 

[Traveling to Thailand alone]

On 10/13/2015 at 5:40 PM, NewThai said:

I always travel alone, so if it were me I'd be there in a heartbeat. Just follow your instincts. If something doesn't feel right, don't do it. I haven't yet been to Thailand, but I've faired well as a lone female in all my workd travels so far. Go enjoy!

Follow instincts and allow yourself to trust when you feel comfortable... I did and always alone 

[Respect of other fighters?]

Generally respectful, or you won't last too long

[MMA Coming to Lumpinee Stadium as Part of the New New Lumpinee]

18 hours ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Fairtex has announced it will begin promoting at Lumpinee Stadium, starting in January, including MMA shows. So... that's happening. They also explicitly state "all genders," making them the second promotion to include women at the stadium (currently GoSport is the only promotion including women there).

 

A Muay Thai Reaction

 

As for how the New New Lumpinee, with its focus on omitting gambling and including very different promotions, one reaction from Thai fans is expressed in this post from a popular Thai Language news page.

It says: Lumpinee will accept 3 rounds, 5 rounds, 6 rounds, female fighters, MMA, concerts - everything but gambling.

(I assume the 6 round fights are boxing.)

The beginning... If the end 

[Best city in Thailand to go to fight for a big guy?]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:47 PM, Joseph Arthur De Gonzo said:

Actually, for Bangkok, I wrote that because everyone says it, but you're right, it is actually not my experience that everything is more expensive. My experience was that the Islands and Bangkok are similar priced depending on what, but Pattaya was cheaper than both, and from what I heard, so is Chang Mai. In any case, money is not my issue. It's more about opportunities and quality of life. 

Now, if I come for six months, I do not know anyone, so the "all about who you know" is basically only luck. From what I heard, there is not that many lower levels circuits in Bangkok (and I am def. lower level), your experience is different?

Pattaya for me, nice environment, plenty of local gyms, and I have seen farang v farang in heavier weights in Best friends and sailor bar....you can fight very often there..I did

[Transformations Through Authentic Muay Thai Training in Thailand Understood Through Bourdieu's Habitus, Doxa and Hexis]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:00 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Doxa and The Fighting Arts

It may seem a bit of a stretch to imagine that cosmologies can be unanchored, and anchored, through motor schema rigor, and exposure to training subculture habitus. But interestingly enough there is ethnological discussion in just this direction. "In Practice Without Theory: a neuroanthropological perspective on embodied learning" by Greg Downey, in the same anthology, Embodied knowledge theory is used to investigate the teaching of the Brazilian fighting art Capoeira. After the author describes the development of "kinasethetic style", through largely non-verbal instruction and more important mimetic accumulation, "forms of moving and gesture, and habits across all practical, linguistic, and cultural obstacles" (notably, this study seemed to be of transmission of the art not in the authenticity of the strucured habitus of Brazil, but in New York), the Capoeira player comes to acquire malicia, in a sense of the game, which is a vision or outlook upon the world, which flows from the social conditions under which Capoeira developed:

On malicia:

I screen quote and comment more from the article here:

The author is very interested in the division between conscious acquisition and unconscious acquisition, because in the fighting arts so much of what is experienced in the intentional practice of the art and its techniques, and Bourdieu on the other hand is insistent that the structuring process of embodied inscription: habitus, doxa, hexis, occurs unconsciously. The reason for this is that Bourdieu is looking for all the hidden ways in which our cosmology, so to speak, is preserved and passed on, especially in terms of injustice. But, it is easy to appreciate that there is a gradation of conscious to unconscious inscription, actions taken which bring to bear structuring at the motor schema level, which come to embody beliefs, and reasons for being. If the author found elements of this from training Capoeira in New York city, far from the original habitus of Capoeira's development (and all the attendant habitus structuring), so much more would one imagine that these inscription occur richly in the native habitate of Capoeira, where the unconscious structuring can become much more thorough. This is why I include concepts of "authentic" Muay Thai training in Thailand. It's not that more commercial, more adventure-tourist models of practice are "less real", as much as they have been extracted further from so much of the unconscious structuring that gave birth and inform the art, a mode of liberation or change. A well-known American coach of Muay Thai joked about people in the West trying to make their Muay Thai training more and more like "real" Thai training, favoring a much more hybrid approach of tradition and western methodology "What do you want? Are you going to have dogs chasing you on your runs?" (paraphrased), referring to the somewhat well known high presence of street dogs on morning and afternoon dogs which will give chase, sometimes a bit dangerously, when the Thai boys run. The truth of the matter is, even something as trivial as random dog aggression (and discovering solutions to it, in a group) can be part of the field/habitus of Thailand's kaimuay Muay Thai. These group runs, running with the other fighters, in fact are structuring processes. Only one of a thousands that happen in a kaimuay. And, the coach is right. Which of the 1,000s of habitus experiences are you going to replicate, in a foreign gym? Not dogs on runs, but maybe wai-ing formally to your coach? As one moves from the conditions of the production of Muay Thai, it is abstracted, and with it the doxa and hexis is changed, because it is within a differing milieu and its habitus.

In a larger sense, returning to Sylvie's trans- project of liberty, by way of conscious and unconscious conditioning, involving not only the kaimuay, but also the habitus of fighting, something she threw herself into committedly, with over 260 fights, leaving the limiting structure of her own cultural doxa, reconditioning herself at the motor-schema level, what is the doxa she is taking on, in a hybrid sense, built into and over the doxa of her youth and early adulthood? It can only be called a layering of worlds perhaps, accomplished through the acquisition and performance of a fighting art, under great duress. A re-formulation of the Self, into a line of flight, as the doxa of a new world starts to show itself.

A general presentation of the doxa concept:

 

 

Oh I love that I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT...................but I will learn 

[Muay Thai News - The Ongoing Development of "New" New Lumpinee]

Gambling and Thailand are one in the same

 

You can not remove it form Muay Thai ..or from betting on two rain drops on a window

 

it is completely ingrained in their culture 

[Sangtienoi merch?]

On 11/9/2021 at 12:21 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Thanks for the suggestion. We can't do that merchandise right now, but if anyone wants to donate to his family we can send the money to them. This is our crowdfunding site. We cover all transfer fees. Just send me a message saying how the donation is for:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/support-muay-thai-legends-in-the-covid-19-shutdown#/

Thanks Kevin, donation has been given 

[Sangtienoi merch?]

Perhaps shorts and t shirts with profits to the good man's family? He was well known and loved in Europe 

[The First Female Fight In Lumpinee Stadium Breaking the Prohibition]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:19 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

[Update edit Nov 8: This fight to have been rescheduled for November 13 see source, it was at first set for November 6th. But with some disappointment, the card which previously held this fight to be a full 5 round fight, now is listed as a 3 round fight, which certainly alters some of the feeling of what I've written below. The fight will not be a traditional full rules 5 round Muay Thai fight.]

While some coverage of the Sanaejan vs Buakaw fight expressed the idea that it was the first time women had fought "at" Lumpinee stadium, it unfortunately due to COVID restrictions at the time did not occur "in" the stadium, and even more importantly IN the ring of Lumpinee. It was a significant step toward integration yet it occurred in a temporary studio ring in the parking structure next to Lumpinee Stadium, in keeping with Bangkok requirements that fights be unenclosed. What that fight represented as a first really was the fact that the Lumpinee name was attached to a promotion featuring female fighters. A huge first - though there have been unconfirmed claims of female fights at Lumpinee, I believe in an alternate ring in the late 60s - for women to be represented in this way. But, historically the more concrete and stigmatizing barrier to women fighting at Lumpinee stadium were beliefs that surrounded the blessing of the ring itself. Sylvie did a good piece on this prohibition here. The prohibition was not that women could not fight on Lumpinee owned land, or under the auspices of its promotion. It was that they could not physically enter...or even touch the Lumpinee Ring, for fear of pollution. (I suspect that the increased intensity of prohibition from entering the ring to even touching the ring may have been due to western tourists over the decades coming closer to the ring physically, though this is just a guess. In the video record you can see female gym owners in the Golden Age, perhaps in a break with decorum, come up to the Lumpinee apron and lean or pound on it, yelling at their fighters.) In any case, when female fighters actually ENTER the ring, this is the historic moment. This moment confronts the very well-defined and belief bound line that separated the genders. This fight, between Celest Hansen (AUS) vs Nongnook R. R. Gila Khorat (THAI), is the anticipation of that crossing. This will happen without audience present, with some COVID restrictions still in place. Things like fight promotions do change very quickly in Thailand, so hopefully this Nov 6 event happens as scheduled, but it does seem women actually fighting not only in the stadium, but IN the Lumpinee Ring is something that is about to occur.

I would be very curious as to how the issue of the blessing of the ring and the long-held beliefs that barred women have been adjusted to. Is the ring no longer blessed in the same way, with the same practices? Many blessed rings throughout Thailand allow women to enter their spaces, but Lumpinee may have undergone specific more orthodox rites. At the very least we are seeing a shift in beliefs and opportunities, and the way that gender itself is regarded in Thailand's Muay Thai fight culture.

Other articles written by Sylvie on women and Lumpinee:

Women in Lumpinee, Thai Female Fighters in the 1990s

or my earlier thoughts:

Can Bleed Like Man: Lumpinee, Muay Thai, Culture

Navigating Western Feminism, Traditional Thailand and Muay Thai

 

[Edit in a historical clarification: Nongtoom Kiatbusaba, The Beautiful Boxer, famously and historically was the first transgender fighter to fight at Lumpinee stadium in 1998, presenting as male, and Angie Petchrungruang in 2017 was the first, visibly presenting as female, transgender fighter at Lumpinee Stadium. Both were allowed to enter the Lumpinee ring because they were regarded as male by the establishment, under the system of beliefs that prohibited women. The Lumpinee fights of both women were steps to today's integration of cis women in the Lumpinee ring.]

 

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Will Silvie have a chance to fight there? 

[What Makes Karuhat Special, Like No Other Fighter? Giving Away a Pair of NEW Karuhat Black & Yellow-Golds]

22 hours ago, MuayKev said:

Lots of things make Karuhat special to me. All of them can probably be summed up by saying I think he has the definition of “beautiful Muay Thai”. The balance, the footwork, fighting from both sides, and it’s all driven by an Einstein level fight IQ. I appreciate rugged/physical styles as well, but I have a special admiration for femurs, and I feel like Karuhat has an extremely unique expression of top level femur skills. 
He also seems cool af. He follows my son on social media and has liked some of his training videos. That says a lot about his love of the sport to this day, that he’s still scrolling random videos of no names training, just like the rest of us.
In the Samson Library session, when Karuhat asked Sylvie if she thought Samson would fight him…that shit was hysterical. What a G.

Some others here have already written much better break downs than I could, I just wanted to show love. I already have the pink shorts and shirt and they’ve become my go to for seminars and “special occasions”. I have so much respect for Karuhat that I feel better about myself rocking his gear. 
 

 

 

Sounds like you have a great love for him Kev, and you are rocking the pink shorts too! 

[Cutting Lots of Weight, Aesthetics or Advantage?]

Hi true, I did eat clean ish between fights.. Just still had to go to extremes to make unrealistic weights set by myself 

[Cutting Lots of Weight, Aesthetics or Advantage?]

I starved, dehydrated, ran miles on weigh in day, took pills... All to "look right" for muay Thai. 

[Cutting Lots of Weight, Aesthetics or Advantage?]

Also often a dramatic weight cut can become a "badge of honour".. From the outside it seems bizarre now 

[Cutting Lots of Weight, Aesthetics or Advantage?]

So, as a retired fighter, its OK for me to tell you some secrets about when I used to fight. I have fought everywhere between 57kg and 75kg over a 13 year career(all as an adult). I have to admit that when I fought very light for my frame that is was more about how I looked than how I felt (or performed).. I trained to lose weight and look very slim rather than train new techniques and get better. My walk round has always been between 75 and 85 kg but I would not dare fight at that weight (which I was very strong and comfortable at) for fear of carrying a bit of fat. I learned this behaviour when training in Thailand early in my career, and also it was about ego and body image - fear of what others think. Does anyone else have the same issues or was it just me? 

[The Hapalang Gym - Dieselnoi and Golden Age Others Comment How Harsh It Was]

On 10/29/2021 at 7:56 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

This is one of the most interesting things for us who laud the excellence of the Golden Age of Muay Thai, and the ages that surround it. The very truth of the matter seems to be: Fighting excellence has come out of great cruelty, intense difficulty, and even injustice. We think somewhat glamorously about things like how Dieselnoi's patron was a mafia boss and godfather, in the Hollywood sense, but this is, in a lived reality, a realm of harshness and crime. The romance we have towards traditional hierarchies include also injustices, and dictatorships in life. Muay Thai (as with so many fighting sports in the world) likely laundered not only slews of monies (gained from cruelty & suffering), but also social statuses. This is the nature of it all. It might be said that it was an immense oppression machine, a compression machine, that produced not only the excellence of these fighters, but also the fights and promotions that produced them.

Talking this over with Sylvie, this seemingly inherent connection between cruelty and fighting excellence, historically, makes me value all the more the precious achievements in Self that people like Dieselnoi, and fighters of his age produced. These men fashioned high art, of themselves, in the harshness of opportunity and circumstance. From where we stand now, it seems like the worse thing of all to forget these men, to forget or lose what they created, out of that harshness. It was that medallion of gold that they mined from their flesh, forged into an art and history. When we remember them, when we document them, we extend its reason for being. Dieselnoi once was talking about the differences between his historical fate and that of Samart, in the context of having beaten him in the fight of the year, The Holy Grail of Fights. He says, he would not have wished upon anyone his fate. He explained that in Thailand it's not how you go along, its how things end. Just like in a 5 round fight, it's the 4th round that matters. For someone like Dieselnoi its the ending that matters, for all of us who are seeking to record and celebrate the creations of these men, the excellence they drew out of extremely harsh circumstances, its about fashioning that ending for them, the one that says: It matters. We can do that now.

I think that when I trained in Thailand between 91 and 93 there were very little consessions for farangs. By 97 as more trained in camps in the "tourist areas" it started to change and become more of a business transaction(one way) where farangs paid and chose how much training they did... So many have never actually experienced old school training that forges diamonds. 

[What Makes Karuhat Special, Like No Other Fighter? Giving Away a Pair of NEW Karuhat Black & Yellow-Golds]

So, the title of the forum thread kinda says it all "what makes karuhat special, like no other fighter"

Well, it's just that, he is not like ANY other fighter that I have seen, met or fought. Back in 1993 I was in Thailand for the first time training and fighting as a wide eyed teenager, full of red bull and dreams of Lumpinee Stadium! Before I went to Thailand I had studied Samart, Chatchai and Kongtoranee so made my home in Sityotong, fighting on small shows in Pattaya. I had seen video of Karuhat before then but did not know his name or where he trained. I went to Lumpinee one night with the camp to watch Chatchai fight and was lucky enough to be back stage helping out with massage and bandages etc. Considering that there were so many quality fighters in the old Lumpinee warm up area as soon as one character entered all eyes fell on him, like a magnet drawing a hushed attention to him, "Karuhat had arrived" He quietly and methodically arranged his shorts (sans label of course) bandages, warm up shorts etc into a quiet little corner and made his preparations for battle. (I still did not know his name at all then) My Thai was poor and I did not know how to ask. 

For those who have never been the Old Lumpinee stadium was a strangely magical place, when empty, just an old shack with barely spinning fans and a dusty stink to it, but on fight night a magical place indeed!

Chatchai had fought and lost a close decision as the main event was about to start, he, and the other fighters form all of the other gyms hurried to catch sight of the small mad entering the ring with a slight smile and more than a slight swagger about him. "Karuhat had arrived" 

I was dragged by Kru Yodatong to "watch, watch" and I watched as he explained with his hands as i could not understand him. He placed on hand horizontally at chest height "Boonliai, Chatchai, Dekkers, Numphon, Sangtienoi" then he took his other hand and placed it at his chin level, again horizontal "Karuhat"; he was explaining "there are levels to this" and he is above them all!

There started my love affair with his style, grace, power, swagger, smile, style (yes I had replica shorts made up and even a side part in my hair). It was the timing, the bravado, the slickness and the speed that excited me and prompted me to try and copy him in every was at the start of my career. He stood out, he gave and received so much respect with ease.

But for me the one thing that makes him stands out is when after winning at Lumpinee, was that I got to say hello to him and share a few moments. In true Thai style, it was less of what was said (very little apart form me prostrating and saying in a strong English accent "Sawadee Krup") He pulled me us and asked "nak Muay"? I nodded, he then did the ultimate Thai thing of squeezing my muscles on my arms, shoulders, and legs, he kind of looked me up and down, I was not muscular, I was not strong and he could see that but what he mimed next will stay with me forever "He spoke in Thai but I didn't understand  -  I did understand what he meant though" He gestured like a big strong fighter, he pushed his nose down like it was broken, made some clumsy punches in the air, then shook his head, waved his finger to say NO. Then the poined to himself, showed a couple of teeps, a couple of pivots and japs "bop,bop" he said, then he brushed his hand over his face as if to say how handsome he was and no scars "YES YES" and a thumbs up. He was telling me to fight smart because of my frame - then a little smile and he was whisked away for a press conference.

So, that's why for ME he will always be so special, he made time for a farang kid in the middle of a room full of experienced amazing Thai fighters. So, I just want to thank him!

Thanks for letting me rant and geek out over him for a while :)