Kaitlin Rose Young

Hi All, I am matchmaking some Muay Thai fights in Minnesota and we have a lot of female fighters in the area who will need to be matched on our next card and on future cards. We are looking for amateurs of all levels (weights 108 - 175) within the US and Canada, and some female pros as well. We are open to both drive ins and fly ins :-) If you are able and willing to travel to fight, please drop your name/record/location below with the best way to contact you. Thank you!

YES! I've felt that way, too. Is the gym open and there just aren't group practices? Would you feel comfortable asking a group to get together to practice more often?

Kevin - This is so awesome. Looking forward to hearing about your journey.

Thanks! Sounds like it will most likely be worth it. I had heard that the WKA tournament was insane. Paper printouts of brackets flying around everywhere, insanely long waits, etc.

Hey All, A few of my teammates are thinking about making the haul out to the east coast for the USMTO tournament. Any fellow forum members attending? We're wondering in particular if the Women's Class A 125-132 is likely to be stacked. It's between this and another single fight event, and she'd obviously rather have more fights if possible.

I agree with Kevin - the body takes a lot more of the abuse in MT, where the majority of blows are aimed at the head in boxing. The few pro boxing gyms I've visited seem to exclusively conduct very hard sparring sessions, so even when not fighting they are taking a significant amount of abuse - probably amplified by the inclusion of headgear. A heavier head creates a greater whiplash effect, which creates more trauma to the brain, etc. To take it a step further, the research suggests that concussion risk also has to do with neck to head circumference. If your neck is smaller in relation to your skull, it has a harder time slowing acceleration of the head due to an impact. Increasing neck circumference protects against traumatic brain injury. The amount of time spent clinching develops muscles in and around the neck like nothing else. (Everyone who trains has had that lovely first experience where you can hardly look up for a few days after the first hard clinching session. :pinch:) There is also an emphasis on strengthening the neck and jaw by biting down on a rope and lifting a weight of some kind with your neck in traditional Thai-style training. Out of all sports, Muay Thai necks have to be up there with the strongest! Edited to add: I bet Muay Thai fighters in the west traditionally do not spend as much time clinching and strengthening their necks, and probably more time hard sparring, which may have something to do with the differences noticed by the OP. Side note: My mom had an interesting discussion about this with one of the neurologists she works with at the hospital. He seemed to think athletes in every contact sport, especially kids and teens, should be doing these exercises. Wrestlers are another group that spends a lot of time conditioning their neck, and usually in MMA they are very difficult to knock out. I wonder if they have different rates of CTE as well? It would be interesting to see some research on neck to head ratios in Muay Thai vs other concussive sports. I suspect it is much closer in the average nak muay than it is in the average boxer. In terms of sheer number of fights, it is amazing that you don't meet more retired MT fighters who are obviously punchy.

Most of the time we do timing sparring, though I do enjoy the occasional hard sparring session. The thing that makes me rage is when someone asks to go light/do timing sparring and then proceeds to start going hard and fast to "get" something because their timing won't let them. It's probably unintentional, but SUPER annoying no less. I also loathe when you have someone in the room who only seeks out partners who are smaller and/or less experienced and then proceeds to clown on them. Bigger guys are usually good at noticing these types, and will take care of the problem :wink: Speaking of which, I love heavyweights. They have a tendency to be the best training partners, even if they have over 100lbs on everyone else.

Despite having trained with Greg quite a bit in the past, I have not seen his DVDs! I know he teaches clinch with a heavy Greco Roman wrestling influence, and it comes together quite nicely with Thai boxing concepts for clinch in MMA. I think the constant swimming for position is a direct transfer from the pummeling drills used in wrestling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fz-duVr-vY We used to have a guy at the gym who was a decently high level Greco competitor, but then also trained (fought) and lived in Thailand for quite a some time. He has long since retired from fighting, but his clinch was something else. It was definitely not traditional, though quite effective. That Pot vs Saenchai video was great. Thank you for sharing.

I've heard a couple of Thai trainers/former fighters express the same thoughts - 10 days to prep for a fight.This is assuming you "train easy" in the mean time and don't let your weight get out of control. Despite the common perception that Thais go hard all of the time, it seems trainers are far more cognizant of overcooking than one might expect. I wonder if it is something that still works in the West where the fights are so few and far between. If we only trained hard 10 days prior to fights here, it wouldn't probably amount to that much hard training over time.

I've had a few fights against friends. The first time was in a tournament, and we met in the finals so we didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Neither one of us was willing to forfeit. Because we were similarly competitive in an "I love you, but I'm still going to whoop you" kind of way, there were no hard feelings. Face kicks and all! The second time, it was a horribly boring fight. The third time was another horribly boring fight. It was an immediate rematch with the same friend. Neither one of us was fighting as we should have. Truthfully, it was less violent than a lot of hard sparring sessions. We even had a short conversation during the bout when I accidentally got my finger stuck in her mouth. (It was an MMA fight.) The fourth time, a friend stepped in to fight me last minute when an opponent pulled out on less than 48 hours notice. She was saving my fight, and the show really, as we were headlining. Not wanting to have a crappy fight like the previous experience, I was able to execute much better. I was still mindful to do so in a way that would be less likely to result in an injury, as she had another important bout scheduled about a month out. Had it not been against a friend, I don't think that is something I would've considered. I've both won and lost in this situation. I agree with Sylvie. It is very strange to simultaneously feel bad for your friend's loss and happy for your win, and even stranger is feeling so disappointed in your own loss but happy for your friend in her victory. I am still friends with all three of them. As I've gotten older, my attitude toward opponents has shifted from a feeling of rivalry to mostly a feeling of appreciation. They are our best teachers, after all. One of the most amazing parts of fighting is the way it helps a person develop emotional control - or rather, it helps us learn not to be controlled by our emotions. If I can throw in my two cents, I don't think you should pull out of this fight. It probably won't be easy to control your thoughts or feelings about it, but that isn't necessarily a reason not to do it.

Excellent point. It may be part of why westerners prefer to rely so heavily on boxing as well.

It seems to me that female fighting in general has been continuously underestimated. MMA may be the only professional sport where female athletes make a comparable salary to the men, especially when we take # of fights into account. This is for good reason. The Tucker Center for Girls and Women in Sport came out with an interesting study a few years ago about how marketing to females is most successful when the character in the add is relatable. Males tend to be more affected by a character they admire - someone considered elite. The theory is that women prefer a character like them, and men prefer one they can aspire to be like. Top female fighters are certainly elite, but in MMA they have had the opportunity to market themselves as individuals (see Michelle Waterson bringing her daughter to open workouts, etc.). It is basically a requirement to be heavily involved in social media, and therefore closer to the fans. Fans see what female fighters are having for dinner, their cousin's wedding pics, and so on. Compared to other athletes, it is easier for women to see the similarities between themselves and female MMA fighters. During the last Olympics, P&G came out with a series of commercials featuring the mothers of Olympic athletes. It was a clever and successful attempt at using the more relatable role of mother, rather than the less relatable role of Olympic athlete, to market to consumers. This is something advertising agencies have been privy to for a very long time. Only recently did fight promotions begin employing the same strategy, and many still don't. While women only make 77 cents on the dollar here, they are still responsible for 80% of household spending. Tap into that market with sports (as many others have been unable to do) and you have NEW customers, without even having to compete for current fans. How many UFC ppvs have been purchased because the woman of the house now wants to see the fights? A lot of this is just theory, and I'm making some generalizations, but I would love to see the numbers on increased interest in MMA from female consumers since women have entered the UFC.

Another difference I've noticed is the perception of wins and losses.(I say this cautiously, as Sylvie or someone else who can understand Thai knows what is being said about a person rather than only to them.) In the west, fighters are sort of regarded as "only as good as their last fight". Ability is almost seen as static, rather than ever changing. If someone has a fight, or heaven forbid a streak, when they don't look the best people will make assertions that they "just aren't a fighter" or they "aren't mean enough to fight". If someone loses three fights people will start asking them about retirement, even if they are good fights. It seems that in Thailand, taking a loss is just viewed as a part of the process. Fighting without heart seems to draw far more criticism than in the west, but the outcome of each bout is not directly tied to a fighters worth and perceived ability.

Ha! That would be funny if that's what it was...I don't remember how much Muay Thai was emphasized in the promotion of that bout. Cyborg was fighting for Elite XC as well. Actually, almost all of the females signed to Elite XC at the time had a Muay Thai background, and the cards were on CBS during prime hours. I doubt Kimbo was the cause of anyone looking up MT, so you might be right :laugh:

That's really interesting. Do you happen to know what caused the spikes in 2006/7 and 2008?

I think it's helpful to look at MMA and BJJ when trying to build Muay Thai in the States because they have done so well here. I don't think copying the MMA model completely would work, but there are some things that have we can take from it. Obviously, it is much more popular and the US has many of the top competitors. Neither BJJ or Thai boxing is "ours" though, so why have we cultivated higher level of Jiu Jitsu than we have Thai boxing? On more than one occasion, I've heard a grappler express the idea that they like Jiu Jitsu better because your game keeps evolving. You can always learn and develop more. In striking, they said, you can only get stronger and/or faster at the moves you already know. That basic idea seems to be very prevalent here in the west. It's laughable, but it also kind of makes sense that they have that perception. In BJJ, it's not really acceptable to open a school unless you are a black belt or maybe a very experienced brown belt. Because Jiu Jitsu practitioners must actually do Jiu Jitsu to advance and it takes roughly a decade or more, a black belt is going to be very proficient. There is no such standard for Muay Thai or striking in general. Anyone can open a gym and call themselves a Muay Thai/boxing coach and nobody bats an eye. The likelihood that an average person who has practiced striking (of any kind, really) trained under someone advanced enough to set them up, make them feel like nothing works, and kick their ass in slow motion without hurting them as a BJJ black belt does, is quite slim. So, the perception is that striking ability is based on some technique, but primarily athletic attributes. In Jiu Jitsu, almost everyone gets to see and experience what advanced looks like first hand - whether they end up making it that far themselves or not. Just as a BJJ black belt can sweep a beginning/intermediate student at will (without injuring them), an advanced Thai boxing trainer might sweep someone off of their feet during rounds. In Thailand, this happens frequently, but in the US many trainers simply do not have the timing or control to do these things. I don't mean to paint every trainer in the US with the same brush, as there are some very good instructors. The point is that there is no requirement to be at any level before putting one's self in a position of authority. If BJJ was primarily taught by purple and blue belts in the US, the perception of that art would be quite different as well.

I've got nothin'! Even wrestling may be "ass back" prior to a shot, but employs a "hips in" strategy as a defense. Maybe there is a hip inflexibility piece to the puzzle? It's less comfortable to have the hip joint hyperextended as we westerners are notoriously tight and inflexible? Total shot in the dark.

I think part of this is due to Muay Thai in the west being centered around recreational business, as opposed to raising professional fighters. They need to keep people engaged. Make it fun! Most people looking for a fun recreational activity are not going to spend hours and hours perfecting their structure as a hobby. This is why you see schools in the States teaching a spinning back elbow to students who can't yet block a kick without falling over. Hammering on proper balance and structure to the degree that one must to create an effective fighter is NOT going to create a large student body, which is what supports a gym as a business here. Most people will never fight but still like to have a goal to work toward and measurable progress. This leads to the development of independent belt ranking systems based on not the "doing" but the "practicing" of Muay Thai. And now we have entered the murky waters of "Can what is being taught still be considered Muay Thai?". In Thailand, the kiss of death for a gym would be ineffective fighters - regardless of how much they are enjoying training. Though at many gyms in tourist-heavy areas, you might see a similar focus to that of the west as you had mentioned above. To your point about the balance>technique>power chain, I think you are spot on. Interestingly, BJJ in the US is taught more similarly to MT in Thailand in that the focus is always position over submission. Get good position first, then worry about your technique and finishing a submission (or striking on the ground if it's MMA). It is also one of the only martial arts where even the recreational students participate in live rounds regularly. The ratio of people actually "doing"Jiu Jitsu is much higher than the ratio of people actually "doing", rather than simply practicing, Muay Thai in the US. /tangent

Totally! It's a significant difference, and hard to let go of as many instructors teach ass-back as proper posture here. I suspect that in addition to the reasons you have mentioned above, it has to do with the fact that people have a very difficult time keeping their chin tucked with a tall posture. In the west, there are many opponents with heavy punches but NOT many opponents who know how to knee effectively. There are even fewer who are clinch literate. Kicks may be fast but they aren't HEAVY, nor can you expect them to be without the hips properly engaged. It then becomes "more effective" to protect one's self from heavy punches rather than a skilled clinch and knee game *most* of the time. This is further compounded by the fact that most commissions have the same people judging all sports. Very few commissions even differentiate between strikes on how they are scored, nor do they take factors like balance and composure into account. Since punches are not scored the same in Thailand, they become less of a focus and *typically* less of a threat. Obviously, there are still knockouts, but you don't see people losing on points to rabbit punches the way you do in the States. The kicks and knees, however, are incredibly dangerous and score higher. So, of course, taller posture is more effective. Because it is so difficult to fight regularly in the US under Muay Thai rules alone, most people fight at least one other style (K1, boxing, MMA, etc). I bet if you ran the numbers, people who fight both MMA and Muay Thai lose to a pure Nak Muay (in a Muay Thai fight) via knees a high percentage of the time.

One of Sylvie's posts about clinch got me thinking about the differences in technique and method in Thailand vs the west. It's interesting how some things may be effective in the West but are not at all effective in Thailand. Part of this is due to relative inexperience in western countries, for both trainers, fighters, and officials. I also think part of it has to do with the influence from MMA, at least in America. Often amateur and even pro fighters will compete against someone with an MMA background who is competing in Muay Thai for experience, though it isn't their primary sport. The judges and commissions often do not score according to Thai rules, so that changes the game significantly. One big difference I have noticed is in cutting weight. You cannot safely do a water load/sodium cut the same way you could do in America. This is due to both the heat in Thailand and the likelihood that your trainer will want you to train until just a day or two prior to the fight. Granted, you don't really need to as it is so easy to sweat in the heat. It is still a major difference, no less. There are many differences from a technique perspective, but one that sticks out is that your block has to be at a much more narrow angle in Thailand. Less experienced fighters tend to have more superfluous movement in their kick, so it tends not to be as direct. It seems this has caused fighters in the states to both use and instruct a wider and less condensed block. What are some major differences you have noticed?

This seems spot on from my experience - both the observations about male ex-pats and some of the difficulties many people have interacting with Thai culture. I think a lot of what Westerners may perceive as deceitful is more the indirect nature of communication in Thailand. Americans are VERY direct by comparison, and it creates a lot of opportunity for offense and misunderstanding on both sides. Personally, this has been something I've had to work on a LOT while forming closer friendships with people who use that style of communication. I am quite baffled that so many people are able to make cross-cultural marriages work for this reason.

Maybe some have become a little too used to being the favored group in their own culture and can't handle *gasp* no longer being the majority. I have not spent nearly as much time in Thailand as others on this forum, but I did find Phuket had a much seedier feel than the other areas I have visited in Thailand. That certainly wasn't the case with everyone, and I'd apply that to Thais and foreigners alike. One would hope people would have enough common sense not to base their judgement of an entire culture off of what they find in an area with a high tourist population.

Do you do the neck exercises that involve biting down on a rope and lifting weight for X amount of reps? It's pretty common in Thai-style training, and fits with the research connecting head to neck circumference as factor in concussion risk. If not, it might be a great thing to add to help prevent re-injury. Since I've started doing that consistently, I haven't felt "rocked" in a fight...despite being kicked in the dome here or there :-D

While visiting Thailand this past month, I have had two teammates with me from the US who happen to be black. Uber in Bangkok is super convenient if you don't speak the language well, as you can designate your location and where you'd like to go with just a pin drop on a map. We often would go to the mall or wherever as a group, and we couldn't help but notice how often our rides would be canceled when my teammate booked them from his phone. Mine always went through just fine. We started wondering if something was wrong with the app....but I have a strong suspicion that having an avatar of a Black male may have had a lot to do with it.