Good toughness and bad toughness

[Boxingscientist]

I'm new here, and I'd love to get some reactions to my post on "Good toughness and bad toughness. Why combat sports are fun and good for you".  (Emma kindly posted it on her blog.)

It's my attempt to rationalize my love of combat sports with my dislike of violence.  Although military metaphors are common in combat sports (and I've been known to wear camo shorts myself), the big difference is that you are fighting in the ring because that's what you really want to do. 

All thoughts are welcome.

[Fighting Frog]

I'm not so sure about the bit at the end suggesting that it's almost a form of love for your opponent, but I think I see what you're getting at.

Frankly I don't fancy MMA because I do quite enough things that court injury without adding that to the list!

I didn't much like watching boxing on the TV as a child (I'd sometimes watch with my father) as I didn't understand what it was all about (same reason why I don't like watching athletics and most sports even today) and it seemed like pointless violence. I suspect that's why most people find it hard to reconcile full contact martial arts with not being violent - martial arts are one-on-one with the aim of actually physically defeating your opponent; not a team sport like rugby where the point of the activity is to get the ball somewhere - the injuries happen more as a side effect rather than being the raison d'etre. And in a one-on-one fighting sport it's completely down to the individual's physical and mental power. From an outsider's point of view it IS violent. And let's face it, although many people take up a martial art and find that they love sparring etc, plenty of others enjoy the sport and fitness aspect but hate sparring: in their own words they "don't have the killer instinct". I do think that to enjoy sparring and fighting there has to be something inside you that takes that step. I suspect it's similiar to the 'spark' that makes the difference between the person who enjoys running and the person who does a competitive marathon; between the person who enjoys riding and schooling their horse and the one who competes in horse trials.

And, quite rightly, that inner whatever-it-is doesn't necessarily make you a violent person. I can still enjoy flower arranging AND want to kick the **** out of my opponent! People are complex, and being one thing doesn't necessarily make you another (eg you can be religious and also a scientist). I would think that a lot of actually violent people (in the sense of folks who pick on strangers, knock their family members about etc) don't do martial arts of any kind because they are disciplined activities, and randomly violent people usually don't do discipline (nor do they like being hit back, which inevitably happens in a combat sport). A skilled martial artist might perform an act of violence, but I'll bet you it will be controlled, only as violent as it needs to be, and for a damn' good reason. A violent person will be uncontrolled, random, excessive, and for no reason other than "you lookin' at me?"

[Boxingscientist]

Thanks Fighting Frog for that thoughtful reply.  I agree almost entirely. But in my experience of rugby. you are encouraged to put your opponents out of the game so I would disagree about your  contention that the injuries are mere side effects. 

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who enjoys doing more than watching. I've been to live MMA only once and had to walk out after the person I was supporting lost.  That was more because of the "fans" than because of the fights though.  The skill and resilience of the contestants, male and female, was pretty impressive.

I like your analogy with marathons.  I suspect that a lot of people start running for fun and fitness, but after they achieve a certain level, they get drawn into competing. And the wonderful thing about marathons is that you compete with your own local group, not the people right at the front, so whether you take three hours or four you still get the excitement of competition.  As Emma said, a lot of people start martial arts for fun and fitness too, but then find themselves drawn into competing just to see whether they can do it. That's surely just a sign that (many) people like to find something that's a hard challenge, and do it.  That surely can't be bad.

[threeoaks]

Dear Boxing Scientist,  I enjoyed your article when it was posted on Emma's great blog, and I enjoyed it again here.  i think its very thorough and well argued.  Anything I thought of to add, I realized you had already diligently covered.  So I will just tell you this story.

I am an artist who makes work about violence, particularly women as active participants (not victims) in violent situations.  I did a show a few years ago in a small museum in upstate NY where I live, and I also lectured in front of my work, which featured several Muybridge-style (early photographer who recorded movement) analyses of a mom and her daughters kind of beating the heck out of each other (they are fighters).  At the lecture, a woman raised her hand to ask me if I had ever experienced violence (because if I had, I would not make this work was her implication).  I told her yes, I had experienced violence.  I didn't tell her how, but among various things my brother is a total psychopath who was frequently violent, and I also train and spar regularly in two different martial arts.  I mean I was standing there on crutches from sparring what can I say?  She would have none of it, and simply repeated her question, several times.  I respect that she had a different experience than me, and would never make work or participate in violent situations.  But I also require that she respect that my response to violence is to look at it clearly and not shy away, because violence just IS.  I don't think she, or a person with her view, will ever understand and that's ok.

Consent is the watchword.  If people consent to violence its cool with me, but I also accept that its not for everybody.  Thanks for writing that super thoughtful piece.  I thought about it a lot.

[Boxingscientist]

@threeoaks

Thanks very much. I'm really glad that you found it interesting and/or useful.

I couldn't agree more that consent is the key. Of course there are a lot of people who don't want to compete and that is fine.  I was trying to explore why it is that some people do want to compete, despite being totally peaceful people in real life, and why the number of people who do want to has increased in recent years.

The word "violence" is pretty loaded.  It occurs only twice in my piece, both in connection with "bad toughness", e.g. "The sport not only encourages good toughness, but it also discourages violence (bad toughness)".  I never thought of boxing as an example of violence, but rather as being just another sort of sport: a hard sport admittedly, but no more dangerous than rugby.  It still surprises me that some people who oppose combat sports nevertheless support rugby.  In my experience, rugby is at least as hard as boxing -you have no padding at all and when you get kicked it's with a studded boot, not bare feet.  Anyone who thinks it's not 'violent' has obviously never played it.

Apart from questions of equality (which I'm 100 percent for), I'm delighted that women now compete under the same rules as men.  If a man defends the use of shin-to-shin kicks, or elbows to the head, he's likely to be accused of liking violence. But women can't be accused of being testosterone-laden brutes.  The fact that many women are more than happy to compete under these rules has prevented combat sports being viewed as being nothing more than a display of male machismo.

Despite the comment from Fighting Frog, I think that I'll stick to my conclusion

"Contrary to what the spectator might think, you are really loving your opponent when you punch, kick or elbow makes them bleed, and you’d really resent it if they weren’t trying their very best to do the same to you."

Well, I guess you are not loving them during the action. but the hug after the final bell shows the essential truth of that intepretation, in my opinion.

[threeoaks]

@threeoaks

Thanks very much. I'm really glad that you found it interesting and/or useful.

I couldn't agree more that consent is the key. Of course there are a lot of people who don't want to compete and that is fine.  I was trying to explore why it is that some people do want to compete, despite being totally peaceful people in real life, and why the number of people who do want to has increased in recent years.

The word "violence" is pretty loaded.  It occurs only twice in my piece, both in connection with "bad toughness", e.g. "The sport not only encourages good toughness, but it also discourages violence (bad toughness)".  I never thought of boxing as an example of violence, but rather as being just another sort of sport: a hard sport admittedly, but no more dangerous than rugby.  It still surprises me that some people who oppose combat sports nevertheless support rugby.  In my experience, rugby is at least as hard as boxing -you have no padding at all and when you get kicked it's with a studded boot, not bare feet.  Anyone who thinks it's not 'violent' has obviously never played it.

Apart from questions of equality (which I'm 100 percent for), I'm delighted that women now compete under the same rules as men.  If a man defends the use of shin-to-shin kicks, or elbows to the head, he's likely to be accused of liking violence. But women can't be accused of being testosterone-laden brutes.  The fact that many women are more than happy to compete under these rules has prevented combat sports being viewed as being nothing more than a display of male machismo.

Despite the comment from Fighting Frog. think that I'll stick to my conclusion

"Contrary to what the spectator might think, you are really loving your opponent when you punch, kick or elbow makes them bleed, and you’d really resent it if they weren’t trying their very best to do the same to you."

Well, I guess you are not loving them during the action. but the hug after the final bell shows the essential truth of that intepretation, in my opinion.

I completely agree with your conclusion.