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17 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

And interestingly enough some symptoms can be a sign of too much salt, or too less of it. 

What are too much salt symptoms? A healthy person, generally, will just pee out sodium that is out of balance, as far as I have read (and seems in keeping with what we've experienced). One power lifter, if I recall, says he takes 12 gm of sodium a day (edit in: ??? don't quote me on this, just by my memory), which seems well beyond what pretty much anyone would regularly supplement.

On the other hand Sylvie had an incredible mental shift in upping her salt intake beyond the gov recommend minimum daily requirement. Her mental capacity, in sparring, completely changed, achieving things she had been working on for literally years. (For instance, the ability to hold contradictory ideas at the same time, in flow.) That's a pretty huge performance enhancer.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

What are too much salt symptoms? A healthy person, generally, will just pee out sodium that is out of balance, as far as I have read (and seems in keeping with what we've experienced). One power lifter, if I recall, says he takes 12 gm of sodium a day, which seems well beyond what pretty much anyone would regularly supplement.

 

Water retention can be a symptom of too much or too little sodium. For example swollen hands when running or swollen feet. 

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10 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

Water retention can be a symptom of too much or too little sodium. For example swollen hands when running or swollen feet. 

Ah. I think Sylvie - who has been much more rigorous about her salt that myself - found that the water retention goes away pretty quickly, once the body adjusts to the new amount of salt. The "water weight" falls away (for instance, she walks around at a much lower weight than before). Which is to say, the body now begins to flush any surplus sodium and creates the sodium/potassium balance. It's kind of debatable whether to call this temporary retention a sign of "too much sodium", or simply "more sodium than you were taking before", I guess.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Ah. I think Sylvie - who has been much more rigorous about her salt that myself - found that the water retention goes away pretty quickly, once the body adjusts to the new amount of salt. The "water weight" falls away (for instance, she walks around at a much lower weight than before). Which is to say, the body now begins to flush any surplus sodium and creates the sodium/potassium balance. It's kind of debatable whether to call this temporary retention a sign of "too much sodium", or simply "more sodium than you were taking before", I guess.

Indeed very great for her. However, I cannot use Sylvie as reference point for my N=1 but have to use my own experience/reactions. And to me it has not been as straight forward. I have other factors that come into play with figuring out a good salt/potassium balance. 

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A guy at my gym was asking me about supplements, because he thought I seemed full of energy and he was curious why he felt so drained all the time. If you're training every day, you're going to be tired all the time. It's just the new normal. However, we went through a list of things, including what he was eating, how much he was sleeping, and talked about salt. Salt seemed to be the thing that has helped him the most. But the reason I bring him up is that I laughed out loud when he said he could "rule out sleep" because he'd gotten a pretty good night of sleep the night before and still felt tired on the run. When you're adjusting these factors, it requires a LOT of data before you know if something makes much of a difference or not. One night of shit sleep can knock you out for a few days. One great night won't give you the equal stretch of great training days. You can feel terrible, take some potassium and salt and feel pretty great a very short time later (it works really fast), but you have to keep doing it. It's about maintaining the balance, not taking a shot when you feel one way or another.

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On 6/27/2019 at 3:25 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Yes, but keep in mind - and again she is maybe unique - her calories were/(are??? - probably higher now with more fats) about 1700 per day. But...her calories are pretty close to ZERO every other day, with no drop off of energy. It kind of puts a test to the idea that you have to bump up your calories (from 2000 to whatever number) in order to have energy on a particular day. On days she is fasting, every other day, she is at zero calories. I know it sounds crazy, but it's how it has played out for about 6 months now. Because of how she is fat adapted, or maybe some other factors, her zero calorie days are still strong days. That, we imagine, is what comes from being keto for a long while. Fasting does not change your energy source.

[edit add]: Sylvie sent me her recent 3 day (with fasting days left off) macros she did a short time ago, so including fasting days she's averaging about 1,100 calories/day:

sylvie's macros.jpg

Hello! First of all I want to say that Ive been inspired by Sylvia that it is possible to combine a ketogenic diet with combat sports. Ive looked through all the Patreon resources that you have regarding this topic, and learned quite a bit! I do a ketogenic diet for therapeutic reasons (under the guidence of the researchers/doctors at https://www.paleomedicina.com/), but Im thinking about going back to doing BJJ.

What Im curious about is how much fat Sylvia consumes, compared to proteins. Typical recommendations (Ketogains, Stephen Phinney, etc) say to eat 70-75% calories from fat (roughly 1:1 or 1.5:1 fat-to-protein ratio). They also tend to keep proteins and overall food intake on the high side, often 120-150g protein per day (1.2 to 2.0 grams per kg body weight).

Unfortunately, the picture with Sylvia's macros which youve posted isnt rendering in for me, for some reason. Could you clarify what Sylvia's macros are, and roughly how much food she eats in a day (protein/fat)? And in periods when she is doing loads of training, does she primarily increase fats, or does she just increase the amount of food while keeping the macro-ratio the same? Does she do any type of targeted ketogenic diet (adding extra carbs around training times)?

Personally Ive been recommended to eat a fat-to-protein ratio of 2:1 (80 % calories from fat), and if doing lots of exercise and sports, then additional food should be added at a 3:1 fat-to-protein ratio. Protein should be kept around 50-60g per day, or a bit higher if doing lots of training (0.8g protein per kg bodyweight).


Finally, I want to share this article with you, I think it might be of some interest to you since Ive seen that you have a interest in our evolutionary past and how it affects our sports performance and diet requirements: https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/stone-age-diet-workout. According to the authors, such an animal food based approach to the ketogenic diet is what we are evolutionary adapted to, and they recommend it for athletes/sportsmen. As a sidenote, theyve published papers showing that this particular approach makes the addition of supplements (such as magnesium and electrolytes) unecessary (its aquired through the diet alone, especially through organ meats).

Edited by robinhood
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