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Hi,

I have been on full Keto for over year now. My daily carb intake is usually below 20g. The problem I am having is, that every time I train I run out of steam very quickly, especially when doing kicks. Already into my second round (out of 4) during a 1.5 hour training I feel my arms and legs getting heavy and it goes downhill quickly from there on. Do you feel that you have lesser endurance than being on a carbs/glucose diet and if so, how do you deal with it?

Cheers

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Do you eat before you workout? If so, what are you eating?

I'm bro-sciencing this a bit (ok more than a bit lol), but try eating some light carbs just before or during training. Gel packs might be a good option 😄 imo the strict 20g rule is a little ridiculous unless you are doing no cardio (or just walking). If you are really working hard then your body should burn the excess glucose/carbs quickly then revert back to burning fat after it runs out of carbs. A lot of times your sweat will smell like ammonia if it transitions properly while exercising. 

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14 minutes ago, Tyler Byers said:

Do you eat before you workout? If so, what are you eating?

I'm bro-sciencing this a bit (ok more than a bit lol), but try eating some light carbs just before or during training. Gel packs might be a good option 😄 imo the strict 20g rule is a little ridiculous unless you are doing no cardio (or just walking). If you are really working hard then your body should burn the excess glucose/carbs quickly then revert back to burning fat after it runs out of carbs. A lot of times your sweat will smell like ammonia if it transitions properly while exercising. 

I am doing a very strict keto regime and maybe, just maybe😉, sometimes I am overdoing it a bit. To support your science I am happy to share what my day looks like and some of the things I notice myself. I start my day at 6.30am with HIIT for 45 min at my F45 Gym and always do it fasting (still need to lower my fat %). I have no problem doing it and actually enjoy it. Never had any issue. When I am back home I have a glass of L-Glutamine and then my bulletproof coffee. So up until now not a single gram of carb. Around 11.30am I have my first meal in form of a shake (keto style), with lots of oil (good oils of course), avocado, peanut butter and walnut milk. The shake has around 12g of carbs (I am tracking my food with myfitnesspal). That's it for the morning and then 2 hours later I go for Muah Thai training.

So my carb intake before is extremely low as you can see. With regards to sweat, I am definitely loosing more minerals then I am able to put back because I noticed that my sweat does not taste salty and doesn't burn in my eyes. It is basically pure water. I supplement with electrolytes before and during training as much as I can. After training I usually don't eat much and maybe have have another protein shake an hour later (Sunwarrior Blend). If I can, I try to do a short run (3-4k only) before dinner and my last meal of the day is around 7pm with either chicken or a steak with some veggies. Forgot to mention I am 48 😄

That's why I was curious to find out how Sylvie is doing it as she definitely trains 10x more of what I am doing in a day and still does Keto.

Cheers,

Carsten

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How many calories is that? That really doesn't seem like a lot of real food to me, especially during the day. Maybe trying switching your dinner and lunch meals so you've got some real food in you before doing Muay Thai? It's just an idea, but that wouldn't require you to actually change anything in your diet and might pick up your energy levels. 

Also, since you ARE 48, have you had your testosterone levels checked recently?

Edit: Hahaha again I am totally bro-sciencing this, but in my experience liquids will run through your body much faster than whole foods which is why I think having solid food midday might help your energy levels.

Edited by Tyler Byers
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1 hour ago, Tyler Byers said:

How many calories is that? That really doesn't seem like a lot of real food to me, especially during the day. Maybe trying switching your dinner and lunch meals so you've got some real food in you before doing Muay Thai? It's just an idea, but that wouldn't require you to actually change anything in your diet and might pick up your energy levels. 

Also, since you ARE 48, have you had your testosterone levels checked recently?

Edit: Hahaha again I am totally bro-sciencing this, but in my experience liquids will run through your body much faster than whole foods which is why I think having solid food midday might help your energy levels.

Yeah, I am usually around 2200 Kcal per day, sometimes lower. Interesting you are asking about Testosterone. I have not tested it but was about to the next few days. Will see if I can add or change the order food intakes and see if it makes a difference. 

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2,200 Kcal isn't a whole lot considering your activity level. That might be your whole problem right there.

Lets assume you burn roughly 400 Kcal during your morning HIIT (I have a friend who religiously tracks his calorie burn for his HIIT workouts and he does about 600 an hour, so 400 Kcal is prob a safe conservative estimate), 300 Kcal during a 1 hour Muay Thai session, and 300 Kcal for a 3-4 KM run (assuming your weight is around 160lbs and you run for 35 min which is a pretty mild pace).....

For the day you are only netting 1200 Kcal. That's barely enough to get by even without intense activity. If you aren't worried about keeping a specific weight I would try tacking on an additional meal (chicken thigh or an avocado?) that is about 400-600 Kcal and just see what happens.

Keep us posted, I'm curious what you figure out.

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16 hours ago, Carsten said:

Hi,

I have been on full Keto for over year now. My daily carb intake is usually below 20g. The problem I am having is, that every time I train I run out of steam very quickly, especially when doing kicks. Already into my second round (out of 4) during a 1.5 hour training I feel my arms and legs getting heavy and it goes downhill quickly from there on. Do you feel that you have lesser endurance than being on a carbs/glucose diet and if so, how do you deal with it?

Cheers

I'm going to completely disagree with the general direction of the advice so far. Hey, that's what diet stuff is, lots of differing opinions! I'm basing this on Sylvie's experiences with Keto. The caveat is that not every body is the same, genetic differences will impact the way that keto affects different people. But that proviso aside, I would bet pretty much the house that your problem is electrolytes. It is much harder to get enough electrolytes from keto sources, that's exhibit A. The keto diet also will put your body into electrolyte shedding states, that exhibit B. And...you are training hard, ie, shedding electrolytes, that's C. All three combine together and can push a keto athlete into deficit. Look up the symptoms of potassium depletion, and sodium depletion, and check if they seem familiar. I wager they are.

Again, differing in opinion, if you are fat adapted you should not need carbs to get you through a hard session. Sylvie trains harder than anyone I've ever seen in the gym, she's a total cardio monster, and she's been fasting every other day since maybe January, keto on her eating days. She's also has fought 8 of her last 9 fights on fasting days. No carbs needed. No drop in production. In fact on those fasting days she's reported even better energy at times. The point of keto is to switch over to your fat stores as the primary energy source - the numbers thrown out on this I've seen is that the body holds 30,000 calories at any one time. You should not bonk. The key is that she is rigorous about electrolyte supplementation, which can be a pain. If you go to the pinned post in this sub forum you can read what she says about sodium, and about electrolytes in general.

To add onto that, she hasn't measured her calories in a while, but if I recall when she did it was under 2000. She's small bodied, but she is not pounding the calories. The key, big time, has been electrolytes. It gave her endurance, and it also cleared her mind and improved her mentality (especially in the case of sodium).

Keep in mind, this is based on Sylvie's experiences, and she might be a freak of nature. There is no fighter I've ever heard of who regularly fights on fasted days. There are other elements to consider as well. Sylvie might also have developed really good habits for how to keep her body in the right endurance zone for the long hours of training in Thailand, that too could have an impact, she may be more efficient. Genetic differences, higher levels of fat adaption, and efficient training habits could add up to significant edges. But, we kind of came to the conclusion that she had been electrolyte deficient for almost 6 years in Thailand, this despite regularly taking electrolytes in her workout water. Once she added potassium she experienced a big experiential bump, then when she added sodium, she experienced another one. You need to calculate the mg you need, and figure out strategies on how to get them and remain in ketosis. If I'm right you should get immediate improvement and relief from your crashing.

I would calculate how many mg you are getting in your regular diet of each core electrolyte, and then check that against recommended daily allowances. Then think about boosting those allowances by 10-20% maybe (just throwing numbers out there), because of electrolyte shedding. With sodium you can go even higher (a good book on upping salt and why). Where are you at vs where you want to be?

The Sodium-Potassium Pump a fundamental chemical mooring of how the body's cells work. When it isn't right or is threatened, a lot of things are impacted.

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6 hours ago, Kuke said:

I have the same problem. Only two or so rounds onto pads or sparring my endurance takes a huge dump. It seems to come on all of a sudden too.

Could be your breathing (holding your breath unconsciously), but if you are on keto I would address electrolytes first. Make sure your potassium is up, and load up on sodium as well. And the others.

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Electrolytes was actually my initial thought as well, but I suggested some other things since Carsten did mention supplementing before and during training. I am curious what Carsten is using to supplement though. I think the most important thing is what Kevin also mentioned about every body being different. There is no way of doing things that works for everyone. I've played with my body and different diets quite a bit (it's just a hobby of mine) so I know what works for me, but you're gonna have to do your own experimentation and see how you feel. Just make small changes so you can really track things to see if it is working for you or not.

I have absolutely found that a lot of what works for me goes against conventional wisdom and heavily depends on the activity I am doing. For example, I can run a half marathon while fasted and with only a week of training to loosen my legs up (literally no exercise prior to that week). I can only do that though because my running form is very efficient, and I can push through it mentally. If I start grappling or doing some other kind of muscle endurance based activity though I will crash within 5 minutes. I get lactic acid build up quite fast and it really shows that I am muscling through drills/exercises instead of using technique. 

If I remember correctly from that post way back in the day, Sylvie's calorie intake was only around 1700 for the day. I would imagine her body is ok with that because it has been running off that amount of energy for some time and simply became more efficient at how it burns. Her technique is also great which means she likely isn't using as much energy to perform the same tasks some others are.

If it feels like you are "falling of a cliff" energy-wise, I would suspect your body simply isn't switching between fuel sources very well. Blood sugar/insulin levels might be an issue for some people as well. Again, this is all speculation, but that is my viewpoint just based on my own personal experiences. Definitely try upping sodium and potassium (I do zinc and magnesium as well), electrolytes are your friend!

 

Random aside: Anyone taking BCAAs to train while fasted? I used to take 10g before training and it seemed to help me a little bit with energy levels.

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19 hours ago, Kuke said:

I have the same problem. Only two or so rounds onto pads or sparring my endurance takes a huge dump. It seems to come on all of a sudden too. Not a steady decline, more like it comes to the edge of a cliff and goes tumbling over the edge.

 

On 6/26/2019 at 8:37 AM, Carsten said:

Hi,

I have been on full Keto for over year now. My daily carb intake is usually below 20g. The problem I am having is, that every time I train I run out of steam very quickly, especially when doing kicks. Already into my second round (out of 4) during a 1.5 hour training I feel my arms and legs getting heavy and it goes downhill quickly from there on. Do you feel that you have lesser endurance than being on a carbs/glucose diet and if so, how do you deal with it?

Cheers

Based on my N=1 experiments there are a couple of things that affect my energy levels:

-BCAAs I take the ones from ON.

-Sleep. You sleep enough?

-Breakfast/no breakfast. Timing of food

-As pointed out, electrolytes. A friend and marathon runner gave me SaltSticks tablets for an upcoming 36k trail run up some mountain. He swears by them told me they were the best. I haven't tried them yet but might be worth a try? On Amazon.

-Add carbs around your workout I think it is called Targeted Keto Diet (macadamia, avocado etc)

-Quality of protein?

-Magnesium?

-Are you getting enough food?

-Do you have fun while working out? How is your inner game? You pep talk yourself or you talk down to yourself? When my mood is right I can hit PRs hungover, sleep deficient and with tummy issues 😊. When not a 5k run makes me cry.

Also a question to ask yourself. How important is being in ketosis? I was low carb high fat for a long time (10+ years) mainly because regular carbs gave me issues. And I also really like the food. But when starting to compete in my sport (before muay thai) and adding longer sessions with a mix of strength skills and metabolic conditioning I hit that wall. I am 100% certain I could have found a way to make it work and it simply had to do with fat adaptation etc. Our ancestors hunted while in fasting state. I'm pretty sure the body can handle muay thai training while in ketosis.

But the effort that would take was not worth it to me if I compared it with the benefits of being in ketosis. So I found a way to eat more carbs instead which took a while. But I'm still interested in tuning my body into handling muay thai training while on ketosis. Especially hearing about Sylvie's result. 

Interested in hearing how if goes. 

 

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16 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

I was low carb high fat for a long time (10+ years) mainly because regular carbs gave me issues. And I also really like the food. But when starting to compete in my sport (before muay thai) and adding longer sessions with a mix of strength skills and metabolic conditioning I hit that wall. I am 100% certain I could have found a way to make it work and it simply had to do with fat adaptation etc. Our ancestors hunted while in fasting state. I'm pretty sure the body can handle muay thai training while in ketosis.

This is basically how I eat now, though I really should be eating more fat and less protien. I don't really count carbs anymore, but am probably under 100g a day typically. I try and stick to veggies and meat dishes, though I don't worry about soy/sugar/etc. too much since I'm not very serious about it. I get fat real easy and actually perform worse when I eat a lot of carbs. I did Keto for a while about 10 years ago, but got super bored with the food as there weren't nearly as many resources back then. I'm wanting to try it again in Thailand since I definitely notice an increase in focus both on Keto and while fasted (you could say I am mentally "hungrier" I guess 🤣) , but need to build myself a little bit of a menu first. Currently working on that in another thread!

Edited by Tyler Byers
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5 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

This is basically how I eat now, though I really should be eating more fat and less protien. I don't really count carbs anymore, but am probably under 100g a day typically. I try and stick to veggies and meat dishes, though I don't worry about soy/sugar/etc. too much since I'm not very serious about it. I get fat real easy and actually perform worse when I eat a lot of carbs. I did Keto for a while about 10 years ago, but got super bored with the food as there weren't nearly as many resources back then. I'm wanting to try it again in Thailand since I definitely notice an increase in focus both on Keto and while fasted (you could say I am mentally "hungrier" I guess 🤣) , but need to build myself a little bit of a menu first. Currently working on that in another thread!

I am all in or all out and with keto in Thailand it got a bit too difficult and I felt the quality of fat and proteins were not that great, so plenty times all in turned to all out. So I am some kind of low carb/moderate fat/paleo mix. I also have cold rice and cold potatoes (resistant starch) at times. Or just regular thai food. But trying to focus on good quality food. For me the key is protein, if I get that right I have good energy levels and stay strong. High carb/low fat food messes up my blood sugar and I never feel satisfied. Trying to eat well 80% of the time. But I very rarely eat any cake or cookies or anything with flour. Stove popped popcorn, salty licorice and white wine are my guilty pleasures. Currently inspired by Ben Bergeron and his nutritional approach. 

My breakfast is something with eggs and veggies and small amounts of fruits and some coffee with collagen and coconut oil. Lunch is spicy pork salad and some clear soup with chicken or ribs or something. Dinner I do chicken thigh or similar. Probably the meal with most sugar in it as I buy from a food stall but after training I think it is ok. And I snack on endless amounts of nuts which is definitely not great but so delish. I think most of the time I end up below 100g carbs. I try to do some regular water fasts to get into ketosis and autophagy. 

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16 minutes ago, Kuke said:

Does anyone have any suggestions for supplementing electrolytes? I don't have a load of expendable income so I was thinking some morton litesalt with a magnesium supplement. 

Yes, electrolytes are not too hard to manage. Magnesium is much more easily absorbed through the skin than by ingesting it, and it can cause stomach distress. So, get a magnesium oil if you can (you can order online) and just spray it on your muscles and rub it in. Or if you have access to Epsom Salt, soak your feet every night. If you choose to ingest it, split up dosages to avoid the stomach distress.

There's no reason to do Morton's Litesalt unless you are trying to get bonus potassium, but you need more potassium than is in it and more sodium than is in it. We use cream of tartar (in the baking aisle) for potassium and pink sea salt for sodium (although even sea salt is lower in sodium than table salt). Both of those can cause stomach distress as well, so make a kind of electrolyte drink you can add to water when you're at the gym that's just a small amount, but take them throughout the day as well. When you wake up, maybe 30 minutes before training (I do 1/8th teaspoon of salt in warm water before I go to the gym), after training and before bed. To clarify, I arrived at 1/8th teaspoon before training because taking more was causing stomach problems. I take much more than 1/8th throughout the day. Usually 1.5tsp minimum and should be taking more.

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8 hours ago, Tyler Byers said:

but I suggested some other things since Carsten did mention supplementing before and during training

This is the thing. Supplements (at least the powders) don't even get you close to what you need. I've forgotten the exact measurements, but I think the most a powder will give you is maybe 200 mg of potassium. I'm guessing they give you much less than this, but lets say 200. That means that to hit your daily requirement on the higher end (4,700 mg) you would have to take 23 (yep, 23!) packets of your supplement (provided you aren't getting potassium anywhere else). And this daily requirement doesn't even factor in the problems of ketogenic potassium shedding (a tendency to just pee it out), and the fact that you are sweating a lot. This is likely a huge problem for keto athletes, because they aren't counting. It's very likely that Sylvie was deeply electrolyte deficient, for years in Thailand, just because she just assumed that she was supplementing and that was enough. I suspect that lots and lots of regular people, on regular diets, when they hit the Thailand heat and drink a few electrolyte drinks are still under, and some way under. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the "overtraining" experiences people have in Thailand is just this, a gradual depletion over time. The only reason why we caught onto this is that we realized that in a ketogenic diet you aren't just going to accidentally eat your potassium requirement, let alone the extra levels a keto athlete likely needs. We started counting mgs including the powder supplements, and we were pretty shocked.

On keto, other than direct supplementation, where are you going to get your potassium. Best sources include

avocado: 485 mg

100 g of spinach: 585 mg

1 cup Greek Yogurt: 320 mg

if you aren't eating these or something else like them aggressively, where are you going to get 4,700 mg of potassium? not from a few drink powders.

 

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6 hours ago, LengLeng said:

-Sleep. You sleep enough?

A huge and difficult one to get, a pillar. Very good to mention this. We've created an entire sleep spreadsheet for Sylvie, tracking all the hours. Why? Because it's hard to keep track of instinctively.

This is a clip of sleep tracking (and a few other restoration priority things)

sleep graphic.PNG

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On 6/27/2019 at 11:26 AM, Tyler Byers said:

If I remember correctly from that post way back in the day, Sylvie's calorie intake was only around 1700 for the day. I would imagine her body is ok with that because it has been running off that amount of energy for some time and simply became more efficient at how it burns.

Yes, but keep in mind - and again she is maybe unique - her calories were/(are??? - probably higher now with more fats) about 1700 per day. But...her calories are pretty close to ZERO every other day, with no drop off of energy. It kind of puts a test to the idea that you have to bump up your calories (from 2000 to whatever number) in order to have energy on a particular day. On days she is fasting, every other day, she is at zero calories. I know it sounds crazy, but it's how it has played out for about 6 months now. Because of how she is fat adapted, or maybe some other factors, her zero calorie days are still strong days. That, we imagine, is what comes from being keto for a long while. Fasting does not change your energy source.

[edit add]: Sylvie sent me her recent 3 day (with fasting days left off) macros she did a short time ago, so including fasting days she's averaging about 1,100 calories/day:

819914433_ketomacros.PNG.57e2558d03891ac501b4a9ed6fb1927a.PNG

 

original here:

 

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1 hour ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It kind of puts a test to the idea that you have to bump up your calories (from 2000 to whatever number) in order to have energy on a particular day.

This is definitely one I think is highly dependent on the person. I personally have no issues with fasting and losing energy, but I also am probably not "the norm". I really think my diet/schedule in Iraq seriously changed the way my body uses energy and how it performs since it was pretty regular to not have a chance to eat/sleep and my body was under tremendous load that entire time. Carrying around 90-120lbs nearly 24 hours a day in very high heat, it was forced to adjust. Our bodies are really crazy with the things they will adapt to!

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1 hour ago, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

We use cream of tartar (in the baking aisle) for potassium and pink sea salt for sodium (although even sea salt is lower in sodium than table salt).

I was wondering where you were getting your potassium from. The info Kevin posted about spinach made me realize that is probably where I get most of my potassium from. Luckily I like spinach a lot and eat it nearly every day!

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8 minutes ago, Tyler Byers said:

I was wondering where you were getting your potassium from. The info Kevin posted about spinach made me realize that is probably where I get most of my potassium from. Luckily I like spinach a lot and eat it nearly every day!

 

1 hour ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

This is the thing. Supplements (at least the powders) don't even get you close to what you need. I've forgotten the exact measurements, but I think the most a powder will give you is maybe 200 mg of potassium. I'm guessing they give you much less than this, but lets say 200. That means that to hit your daily requirement on the higher end (4,700 mg) you would have to take 23 (yep, 23!) packets of your supplement (provided you aren't getting potassium anywhere else). And this daily requirement doesn't even factor in the problems of ketogenic potassium shedding (a tendency to just pee it out), and the fact that you are sweating a lot. This is likely a huge problem for keto athletes, because they aren't counting. It's very likely that Sylvie was deeply electrolyte deficient, for years in Thailand, just because she just assumed that she was supplementing and that was enough. I suspect that lots and lots of regular people, on regular diets, when they hit the Thailand heat and drink a few electrolyte drinks are still under, and some way under. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the "overtraining" experiences people have in Thailand is just this, a gradual depletion over time. The only reason why we caught onto this is that we realized that in a ketogenic diet you aren't just going to accidentally eat your potassium requirement, let alone the extra levels a keto athlete likely needs. We started counting mgs including the powder supplements, and we were pretty shocked.

On keto, other than direct supplementation, where are you going to get your potassium. Best sources include

avocado: 485 mg

100 g of spinach: 585 mg

1 cup Greek Yogurt: 320 mg

if you aren't eating these or something else like them aggressively, where are you going to get 4,700 mg of potassium? not from a few drink powders.

 

Just a note on potassium from someone who was diagnosed with hypokalemia which was really really scary and felt like how you imagine a heart attack. Sodium, potassium, hypertension and diuretics to treat hypertension. There's a delicate balance. I'm sure Kevin and Sylvie have done all the research needed and know what they're doing. But just to emphasize to others, if you have any blood pressure issues and want to start trying out various sodium and potassium supplementation thorough research required. 

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On 6/27/2019 at 9:49 PM, LengLeng said:

Just a note on potassium from someone who was diagnosed with hypokalemia which was really really scary and felt like how you imagine a heart attack. Sodium, potassium, hypertension and diuretics to treat hypertension.

It is very, very important to research this yourself, pick the appropriate target and count your mgs and get to it. I'm assuming you mean "hyperkalemia" and not hypokalemia, but maybe you mean low potassium. As to the relationship between hypertension and sodium I think if anyone is concerned about this they should read The Salt Fix and make up their minds on where they want to stand on that split. The argument in that book - and you can take it with a grain of salt - is that the sugar industry demonized salt, the "other" white crystal, in an effort to shield criticism of the health dangers of sugar. It's an argument that goes quite well with many of the body-picture arguments of ketogenic diet advocates, so it's worth reading. Though that doesn't mean the argument is right. Generally though, it suggests that the entire anti-sodium blood pressure advice should be seriously put in doubt, or at least put into a much wider context of the kinds of dangers that low sodium likely pose, and the medical establishment's problematic history with salt.

On 6/27/2019 at 9:49 PM, LengLeng said:

There's a delicate balance.

One of the interesting thing about sodium and potassium is that it seems that if you give the body enough of both without excessiveness, the body itself will produce that balance (as long as it is in good health). There are REAL dangers of overdoing potassium (which is why it's almost impossible to google accurate safety limits, nobody wants to responsible for a fatality) but most of the research I saw is that these levels are really excessive. If daily requirements are 3,500-4,700 mg these are minimum requirements. Minimum. And I suspect that most people on a Keto Diet aren't hitting them. I imagine that 5,000-6,000 mg [There, I wrote it, nobody really wants to write it.] is a reasonable target for an athlete who is drinking lots of fluid, sweating a ton. This number is nothing but a guess of mine, you make your own, but potassium is lost through sweat and urination. If you are doing both, well, you figure it out. At minimum though you should be, well, hitting the minimum. One reason everyone online will tell you to make sure you get your potassium from foods is that it is almost impossible to OD on potassium on whole foods, something harder to do on keto. When you get it from supplementation you can, imaginably, go crazy and get to dangerous levels (hell, not one scoop, I'll do five, I'll do ten!). This why you will not find substantive potassium supplements. Put out in the world population you will always have a small percent of people just do absolutely dumb things. But yes, please Google about and become aware of what is a dangerous level. Count, double count. Make sure you don't move a decimal point.

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On 6/29/2019 at 2:38 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It is very, very important to research this yourself, pick the appropriate target and count your mgs and get to it. I'm assuming you mean "hyperkalemia" and not hypokalemia, but maybe you mean low potassium.

Hi, I actually meant hypokalemia. It might be confusing the way I put it, sorry. But I meant to emphasize the importance of potassium not being too low or too high. I had moderately low. And I was admitted to hospital with chest pains and cramps nausea and fatigue that had lasted for some hours. They kept me for five hours to rule out heart attack. Once they discovered the potassium levels being low I got a powder diluted in water. Within 20 minutes I was myself again. To see whether I needed to supplement I did another blood test about a week later, turns out potassium levels now were stable. This made me realize two things, potassium being extremely important, but also that I probably feel if my levels are low. I only needed to supplement that one time. However, reference range might also be set too low and we actually would benefit from more. And just as you write above, going ketogenic will probably require some supplementing.

I am currently trying to figure out my own salt and potassium balance. It is very tricky in a humid climate while doing a lot of sports. And interestingly enough some symptoms can be a sign of too much salt, or too less of it. 

The salt debate is very interesting and I have followed it for a while. I use my own gut instinct a lot when it comes to nutrition, especially since most studies are completely useless. I guess with salt it is about its context, does it come in the shape of processed food or sea salt sprinkled on whole foods you cooked yourself? I like the approach EC Synkowski takes on "can you eat this or that"and it mainly depends on what other stuff you are eating. 

I found this article thought-provoking on how we cannot ignore evidence to preserve an ideology and call it science applied to the low and high fat debate: 

https://deniseminger.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/#upnext 

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    • Neither's wrong 🙂 it's all your preference and what you need to achieve at that given time.
    • one study: the left amygdalais more closely related to affective information encoding with a higher affinity to language and to detailed feature extraction, and the right amygdala to affective information retrieval with a higher affinity to pictorial or image-related material. Furthermore, the right amygdala may be more strongly engaged than the left one in a fast,shallow or gross analysis of affect-related information. read the study here: Differential_Contribution_of_Right_and_Left_Amygda.pdf They found in 17 normal subjects thatthe evaluation of unpleasant visual stimuli activated(among other regions) the left amygdala. This activa-tion not only held for fear-related, but for a wide rangeof unpleasant stimuli.Studying regional cerebral blood flow changes in re-sponse to the presentation of faces with different emo-tional expressions, has provided a major basis for es-tablishing a differential role of the left and right amyg-dala in cognitive information processing. Interestingresults were obtained in a series of studies by Mor-ris [85, 87, 88]. Morris et al. [85] found enhanced...On the other hand, Mor-ris et al. [87, 88] found a significant neural response inthe right, but not the left, amygdala to masked presen-tations of a conditioned angry face. Combined, thesefindings suggest that unconscious (masked) process-ing is mediated more readily by the right, and con-scious processing more readily by the left amygdala(among other structures).  
    • In some Follicular = left, Luteal = right from wikipedia, the amygdala Hemispheric specializations In one study, electrical stimulations of the right amygdala induced negative emotions, especially fear and sadness. In contrast, stimulation of the left amygdala was able to induce either pleasant (happiness) or unpleasant (fear, anxiety, sadness) emotions.[10] Other evidence suggests that the left amygdala plays a role in the brain's reward system.[11] Each side holds a specific function in how we perceive and process emotion. The right and left portions of the amygdala have independent memory systems, but work together to store, encode, and interpret emotion. The right hemisphere is associated with negative emotion.[12][13] It plays a role in the expression of fear and in the processing of fear-inducing stimuli. Fear conditioning, which occurs when a neutral stimulus acquires aversive properties, occurs within the right hemisphere. When an individual is presented with a conditioned, aversive stimulus, it is processed within the right amygdala, producing an unpleasant or fearful response. This emotional response conditions the individual to avoid fear-inducing stimuli and more importantly, to assess threats in the environment. The right hemisphere is also linked to declarative memory, which consists of facts and information from previously experienced events and must be consciously recalled. It also plays a significant role in the retention of episodic memory. Episodic memory consists of the autobiographical aspects of memory, permitting recall of emotional and sensory experience of an event. This type of memory does not require conscious recall. The right amygdala plays a role in the association of time and places with emotional properties.[14]
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    • one study: the left amygdalais more closely related to affective information encoding with a higher affinity to language and to detailed feature extraction, and the right amygdala to affective information retrieval with a higher affinity to pictorial or image-related material. Furthermore, the right amygdala may be more strongly engaged than the left one in a fast,shallow or gross analysis of affect-related information. read the study here: Differential_Contribution_of_Right_and_Left_Amygda.pdf They found in 17 normal subjects thatthe evaluation of unpleasant visual stimuli activated(among other regions) the left amygdala. This activa-tion not only held for fear-related, but for a wide rangeof unpleasant stimuli.Studying regional cerebral blood flow changes in re-sponse to the presentation of faces with different emo-tional expressions, has provided a major basis for es-tablishing a differential role of the left and right amyg-dala in cognitive information processing. Interestingresults were obtained in a series of studies by Mor-ris [85, 87, 88]. Morris et al. [85] found enhanced...On the other hand, Mor-ris et al. [87, 88] found a significant neural response inthe right, but not the left, amygdala to masked presen-tations of a conditioned angry face. Combined, thesefindings suggest that unconscious (masked) process-ing is mediated more readily by the right, and con-scious processing more readily by the left amygdala(among other structures).  
    • In some Follicular = left, Luteal = right from wikipedia, the amygdala Hemispheric specializations In one study, electrical stimulations of the right amygdala induced negative emotions, especially fear and sadness. In contrast, stimulation of the left amygdala was able to induce either pleasant (happiness) or unpleasant (fear, anxiety, sadness) emotions.[10] Other evidence suggests that the left amygdala plays a role in the brain's reward system.[11] Each side holds a specific function in how we perceive and process emotion. The right and left portions of the amygdala have independent memory systems, but work together to store, encode, and interpret emotion. The right hemisphere is associated with negative emotion.[12][13] It plays a role in the expression of fear and in the processing of fear-inducing stimuli. Fear conditioning, which occurs when a neutral stimulus acquires aversive properties, occurs within the right hemisphere. When an individual is presented with a conditioned, aversive stimulus, it is processed within the right amygdala, producing an unpleasant or fearful response. This emotional response conditions the individual to avoid fear-inducing stimuli and more importantly, to assess threats in the environment. The right hemisphere is also linked to declarative memory, which consists of facts and information from previously experienced events and must be consciously recalled. It also plays a significant role in the retention of episodic memory. Episodic memory consists of the autobiographical aspects of memory, permitting recall of emotional and sensory experience of an event. This type of memory does not require conscious recall. The right amygdala plays a role in the association of time and places with emotional properties.[14]
    • Finalyy something worth participating in this forum. 
    • Hi! Since I gathered a lot of expeirence getting injured and sick while training, I thought I would start a new topic, namely: gym/trainer advice received on how to care for injuries or ailments.  I will start with a couple of things I have been told and their origin.  Swollen, painful knuckles: massage with hot water and salt (western boxing coach, Sweden) Ligament or muscle issues: Ice bath with salt. Eat potatoes and ocra/lady fingers. (lethwei trainer, Myanmar) Any kind of muscle pain: warm water massage (basically all muay thai trainers, Thailand) Cough: gurgle with warm salt water (muay thai trainer, Thailand) Shin dents: gentle warm water massage downward motion (muay thai trainers, Thailand) Prevent skin rashes of any kind: rinse water directly after training then apply baby powder (muay thai trainer, Thailand) Pink eye: stay away, absolutely no clinching, hot water compress (muay thai trainers, Thailand)    
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