[What Spider-Man Animation Tells Us About Yodmuay Muay Thai]

Oh I absolutely loved reading this. How well articulated. I just watched Spider-Man in the Spider verse last week. I still can’t get over the colors, the characters, and how the shapes move across the screen. 

 

The theme of getting to know your silhouette to fully unleash your powers = the idea you will fit into your Spider-Man suit in time. No returns policy.

Your post reminds me about the phenomenon of the human imagination. The liminal space we step into when we suspend disbelief temporarily and listen to the narrative. The place where literally anything can come to be! The space between the tip of the animator’s pencil and paper. The space where the brain and a vivid literary world collide in the reader’s mind. The space that rests between the fighter who is and the fighter who is to be. Our gaps are our potential bc that’s where our imagination naturally thrives. 

 

Ive been thinking a lot about the imagination recently. This was such a relevant and encouraging post. I like thinking with the concept - Ruup! Very insightful and beautiful  ~  thank you for the thoughtful post. 

[The Craft of Legendary Fighters - How Fighters Become Artists]

I love how your juxtaposition of different fighters’ craft is shared from first hand observation. I sense the awe and appreciation for each fighter's “chosen” style of preservation (for example, Samson v Karuhat). Especially given the mission - “Preserve the Legacy,” I think it is special to tap into individual modes of preservation bc each legend’s relationship to the art is absorbed and “shelved” differently in their mind and muscle memory. Thank you for this angle in the forum! 

[The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai]

35 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I think Wilde was not a Muay Thai fighter, and lived in an altogether different universe. There are, in this other universe, a trinity of transcendentals (as they are sometimes called), Truth, Beauty and Goodness. Three dimensions of the same thing. All three strike me as quite useful. One of the things that I find extraordinary about Muay Thai is how a truly beautiful move is incredibly beautiful BECAUSE of its efficaciousness. The right move, at the right time, is defined by its utility, without falling into utility. It also has the transcendental quality of mathematics, which has all 3 qualities, a mathematics of the body. At its highest, Muay Thai seems to possess all 3 through its utility. It has an almost Spinozist quality to me.

Absolutely. Wilde was not a Muay Thai fighter, and this was his only novel based off of a Faust legend.

If he had seen a Muay Thai fighter fighting within the trinity of transcendentals, he might have written about that experience/story instead haha 

The arts is such a large umbrella term and often (too?) all-encompassing. I’m realizing now that different kinds of art philosophies don’t always occupy the same “shared venn diagram space” as each other, though they all lead to a form of art. 

[The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:26 AM, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Tying this to art is interesting in a few ways, both in that the poor artist had to have "patrons" who supported them - and sportsman have to have an audience and a camp - but also in that the rich practitioner/artist is able to devote himself due to his leisure. Listening to Joe Rogan, I'm always pretty surprised by how "good" a lot of these celebrity Jiu-jitsu players become, but then it's not that surprising at all when they have a lot of time to devote to it. It's not a "hobby" just because they're wealthy, but in a poor practitioner it's a kind of hunger because the way to "find time" to practice is to either devote yourself entirely and kind of let other responsibilities atrophy, or you're a "weekend warrior" because you have to work all the shifts, take care of all the kids, etc. A painter who can paint 20 hours a day is "better" than a painter who can paint 2 hours a day, and whether you're rich or poor doesn't make a difference other than how you go about having the time to dedicate yourself to it.

In the world of Muay Thai in Thailand, this conversation becomes interesting because it used to be like Fighting Chickens, where a rich man would pay a trainer to take care of his chickens, like a patron. A gym supported the fighters so that they could fight. Introduce the affluent (relatively or directly) westerner who pays for training and over enough decades the patterns of the gym space actually change. In Pattaya this is distinct. Kru Nu is the head of the second oldest gym in Pattaya (behind Sityodthong) and holds a certificate that identifies him as a real traditional fighter's gym (of which there are only 2-3 left in Pattaya, despite the small city have TONS of gyms now), as opposed to a commercial business. Kru Nu's gym, Petchrungruang, is still a business. But it has a certificate from the Muay Thai Authority of Chonburi (our province) that identifies him as a different class than the newer gyms, which cater mainly to tourism... and have taxes and certificates from the Board of Tourism, rather than the Sport Authority. The tourist market allows gyms to cover their overhead and it puts much less pressure on the fighters of the gym to earn a living to support the whole operation. That's kind of good in ways. But it changes the priorities of the gym a lot, which I love about Petchrungruang because Kru Nu invites anyone and everyone to train the same way his real fighters do, but they're his priority. He's not catering to the guest, so to speak. The commercial gyms are doing much better, business-wise, and with money comes power and they can throw weight around for opportunities. Something a small gym can't necessarily do, but has very long-held connections with promoters and other gym owners (Thai and western, many of the western gym owners came through Kru Nu's gym at some point). Even Sityodthong, after the death of the absolute Legend founder, Master Yodthong, has completely changed now that it's under the management of his children, who grew up affluent.

This is so neat - to use chicken fighting and Kru Nu’s Gym as case examples.

Art seems to draw in community, maybe even form community, because this is the nature of beauty. We want to discover it for ourselves, but we also want to gather others around to celebrate, study, learn from, and test Beauty together. There is a larger, communal validation of the Beauty. 

Also, we want to absorb as much of it as possible. Specifically in regards to Muay Thai, I perceive nak muays want to “inscribe” the Art into our bodies. For it to become a partner of our bodies’ natural flow is a beautiful thing indeed. (On a relevant side note, I think fight photographers want to savor and capture the beauty in a different form. Not on their own bodies, but within different cascades and shadows of light. They can then share something closer to their exact personal perceptions to the onlooker via the camera’s malleable eye and the dramatics of light/color/effect). 

On the topic of patrons, there seems to be layered motives to wanting to support. Some patrons want to tap into this beauty and grow from it and ultimately support it by tangible means. Other patrons want to invest in it because Beauty is also a source of raw power. (These motives are not mutually exclusive, but just two types of motives I am currently thinking of). 

I think the rarer ”Beauties,” like Petchruongrang Gym, are the ones chasing after the art, not the money. They could chase the latter if they really wanted to, with probably just a few tweaks, but they are so consumed by the art itself that may not be their primary concern. In a sense, they have reigned in the true power of Beauty because it is untainted. 

This is a pretty romantic view of power, money, and art, but I think I ascribe to it. 

[The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai]

On 5/31/2019 at 9:34 AM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

It's very interesting for you to expand the subject to the level of arts in general. I did not expect that! In combat arts there is an added dimension, which is that fighting itself - and by that I mean "real" fighting as a capacity - tends to favor those who are raised in rough lives. Having to scrap, or be physically competent is something you learn at a young age, generally, and these qualities and their relationship to violence, really seem to help performance in combat sports. The rich or affluent are widely seen as "soft", which is why many of them may be drawn to fighting arts/sports, as a way to prove or improve themselves. In Thailand we are seeing a huge trend of this from the Chinese middle class males who are now coming to toughen/prove their manhood, now that their country is in full economic bloom. This is repeating much of what has happened from the last in previous decades. You saw it in the huge success of the book A Fighter's Heart, by Sam Sheridan, which was basically a rich Uni boy traveling around looking for tough adventure.

So in fighting there is a kind of contrast, it seems. Over generalizing, you have the "real fighters" who come from rougher backgrounds, and then the meeting them on the other side, you have the affluent who are drawn to the arts because of their affluence. I'm not sure it's the same in the arts, maybe you would disagree. Yes, we have the image of the starving artist, there isn't the same feeling that he is a better artist because he's disadvantaged. One might imagine that an affluent person might make a very good painter, or writer.

But, I'm not entirely sure of the argument there. What is "real" art?

In the story of martial sports and arts there is a very interesting example in Karate, as it was disseminated to Japan in the 1920s and 1930s in a very abstract way, to the affluent, and that even sparring was removed from the equation. Funakoshi, was the man most responsible for bringing Karate to Japan from Okinawa, someone who prided himself on never injuring a single person:

Thank you for sharing so much, Kevin! This speaks to the functionality versus symbolism of art. Is it just meant to express the artist or hide/free the artist? I am reminded of the preface in the classic novel, “The Portrait of Dorian Gray.” It’s a page and a half but my highlight is the last line after all is said and done about the greatness of art itself. 

 

[Admin edit: these photo files were lost in the takedown of the site]

[Women fighting & training - how do you feel, similarities and differences with men.]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Stewart said:

In all of my years associated with the martial arts, there have always been women involved either as instructors or students. Each and everyone of them has/had the respect of the class. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but I've always found martial training, be it Karate or Muay Thai to be a pretty even playing field where you earn your respect regardless of sex. At least that's been my experience. Bare in mind, I come from Queensland and in American terms we were and still are considered rednecks. Of course there has been the occasional knob head, both male and female but they have usually left of their own accord or have been asked to leave.

As a teacher,  I have one particular female student whom three months ago wasn't very confident in herself. She's a naturally big person. Anyway she could not kick higher than halfway up her own shin height. Now, she's kicking almost to head height,  she's 6'1". She feels more confident in herself and the secret to bringing her out of shell was something I learned from Sylvie. Try not try, let things just flow.

I do think in general, women are more eager to please and seem more attentive in regards to learning.

I agree with Jeremy - in general women are more eager to please and seem more attentive to learning (this goes for the academic classroom as well). I would say this may be the case across most personalities in women, even with shy individuals who do not express themselves as loudly with their voice.

In Taiwan, I was and under-10yo children’s kickboxing and BJJ assistant coach. The girl:boy ratio was always 1:10, or something like that. Of course there are cultural differences, but in general, I still noticed the girls were very quiet and not as vocal as the boys. Yet, it was clear they wanted to learn (for example, they would try to correct their technique when I pointed something out). The main coach always had me work with the girls and the newcomers as the only female assistant coach. So, I got to see how they grew over time too. 

One girl was always down to spar bc she would willingly and literally walk up to challenge. She “became more aggressive,” or stood her ground when she was in the center of the ring to spar with everyone watching, but still no screaming or crazy sounds, like the boys. Another girl was always more hesitant, but would go up since I constantly yelled, “You can do it!” As time went on, the girls seemed to become more normalized to the procedure of getting over nerves and going on their own. I think the mad cheering helped them because they were receptive and eager to please.

The boys were objectively more talkative and “silly.” Even the “leader types” goofed off more than the girls. While they knew when to be serious and work hard, but they seemed to enjoy a flexibility of seriousness-playfulness as a child. I saw less of this behavioral breadth in the girls. This is just my general observation. There were some shy boys too, but the more extroverted personality traits were dominant amongst the males (also given the highly unbalanced gender ratio). 

At this age, there is not too much “sweetheart of the gym” present. Sometimes fitness-goal-centered gyms have this issue amongst adults. I can feel competition in the air to be “seen” by the male coaches or men in the room. But in serious gyms that train to fight, this dynamic is not as common. Women are usually THRILLED to have other women fighters step into the space and work with them. Occasionally, I would hear from female friends that this dynamic is going even in serious gyms. Even though, I am one to be sensitive to gender dynamics, I was surprised because I was unaware. So despite the gym space itself, perhaps the experience for women will still vary per individual. I can on, but I’ll stop here for now haha.

[The Role of the Rich in Martial Arts - Taekwando, Karate, Muay Thai]

The role of the rich in the arts in general! In the context of History, I’m learning that with wealth comes the birth of the opinionated man. Preferences and taste are socialized by the richness of exposure and education. 

This is a fascinating topic because art is one of the intersection points of the rich and the poor. (I’m thinking of the rich art collector and the “poor artist” cultural motifs). Also, art has the potential to be an equalizer of class, like death, because of the arguably more inherent nature of human creativity. 

As for martial arts, I see money all over the gym and fight scene both locally and internationally (travel, equipment, nutrition science, etc). But, I would like to see...how much of its survival is fueled by human fight philosophy or technology, than pure monied privilege?