All Activity

Your comments here remind me of two authors in particular. The first, Walter Benjamin, who wrote Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction in around 1920, and William S Burroughs. Both were concerned with the ability of modern modes of production of profit increasing quantity, with a corresponding collapse in quality. The intersection of traditional art and contemporary media consumption is not new. We still have art galleries, museums and opera. We still even have cheese rolling, dwile flonking and the Atherstone Ball Game in the UK. Let's hope there are enough lovers of true Muay Thai to support it at festival level, certainly these traditional forms can be promoted, there are numerous examples of art forms which have promoted their pure selves. One example is playhouses live broadcasting to cinemas. The old art form utilises the newer to its benefit. I certainly intend to travel to Chenjigou to train the martial art that the Chen family have taught there since the 1640's. I intend to travel to Thailand for similar reasons.

Whatever one's position on the future of Thailand's Muay Thai, its hard to deny that many of the arguments for the unstoppable - but sometimes delayed - "evolution" of the sport, it's imagined "potential" being reached through globalization and hoped-for mass popularity, it's provincial/parochial (or corrupt) nature being technologically "modernized" and rationalized, mirror the justification reasonings behind colonialism, which held a concept of beneficent, educating husbandry and willful, well-rewarded participants in the culture. This is not to say that they are the same, we are in a different time in history, but only that the ethical questions about colonialism likely need to also be answered in this case, where "development" by powerful outside forces and interests is assumed as an unproblematic Good.

This is aside from the worrisome corrosive effect of replacing extremely knowledgeable, deeply invested in-stadium fans with phone scrolling tourists who know very little about the sport or what is going on in the ring. A sport (and art) in a certain sense cannot survive at a high level of performance with such a huge in-stadium fan disparity. Audience will over time shape the product...when it becomes a "product". This is one of the quagmires of a consumerist approach.

Reflecting on it, I think these are my three main objections - or at least points of constructive criticism - towards some of the globalizing efforts on Thailand's Muay Thai: 1. Changing the rules and very form of the sport so that Westerners (and other non-Thais) will win fights that they otherwise would have lost. (This goes from changing weigh-in rules to down-regulating primary Thai skills - defensive counter fighting, narrative control, clinch, etc - that non-Thais just are not good at.) 2. Decaying the once vast small kaimuay/festival culture of provincial Muay Thai which created such diversity and complexity of skillsets in Thailand historically AND radically altering the developmental training methods of Thais. Both of these lead to Thai fighters just becoming less and less skilled, and more in line with a Western/International baseline. 3. Changing the ethos of Muay Thai fighting. Moving it from a sport that fundamentally expresses control to a sport that expresses violence. The first of these puts a thumb on the scale that gives the illusion that Western/International fighters are much better than they are. This is great for International marketing. And the second of these reinforces that illusion because it drains the Thai standard of greatness that gives Muay Thai its allure in the first place. If Thais become less skilled, again International fighters will win more fights. The primary motivator and promise of the "Magical" or untouchable fighter of Thailand becomes lost, an image that ironically enough has been essential to Soft Power. The third of these is maybe the most troubling, or at least harder to see and pernicious. In order to align Thailand's Muay Thai with Global appetites it must move towards expressing similar values that combat fight culture expresses in global capitalism, which is that of transgressive violence. The very foundational value of control-in-the-face-of-possible-violence that generated such high level fighters of Thailand, which gave it its aura in the world, becomes culturally colonized; it is replaced by a lower value of entertainment violence (which over time produces much less complex or fluent skill sets). Prescriptively, one would maybe list: 1. Try to take the thumb off the scale for International fighters. Now that they have been skewed for start sliding the sport back towards complexity and higher level skills. 2. Protect and nurture the kaimuay/festival grassroots of Muay Thai, the small gym networks and fighting circuits that develop rich skillsets. AND, preserve or return to aspects of traditional training practices, because higher level skills were embedded in these practices. 3. Pull back on the valorization of violence or aggression for its own sake, and embrace the uniqueness of control in the face of violence, extol "gep awut" for instance. This unlocks the greater levels of skill which will give Thailand enduring value in the world. I could mention as well, this is really core to the persistent debate about youth fighting in Thailand. From an Internationalist perspective because fighting is fundamentally violence, it is inherently transgressive and "adult". Because fighting in Thailand's history is NOT fundamentally violence, but instead is about mastery and control (quite complexly developed, including the use of aggression, but not fundamentally so), it is not inherently adult. In fact, it is an inculcative practice, a practice of maturation that aligns with the process of becoming adult, possessing control. One reason why Thai fighters have been so sublimely skilled is that they grew up within a process of developmental control over oneself and threatened violence. An art counter to violence as it is commonly conceived in a fundamental way. If we change the spectrum of this valuation, not only are the highest level skill sets threatened to be lost, but also the valuable lesson that Thailand's culture has for the world will fall away. Ideally, the key to long term Soft Power for Thailand has to be founded on the uniqueness of Thailand's perspective on fighting and fight culture. This is what brings people across 1,000s of miles and causes them to invest their lives in the specialness of the art. And this comes out of the valuation of what fighting itself means and the incredibly high level of skill that was developed in that value, come out of the root-system of provincial fighting.

There's a bloke in our gym that wants to fight. He's not as good as his friends tell him. The coach has had a diplomatic word to the effect that he will be even better 'in a few months time.' I reckon a year. It's what a good coach does, sets up fights and protects his fighters. Good luck with your new gym Clay. Hope it's a good one. When you make friends with a few of the regulars, they;ll let you know of other decent gyms locally, and their strengths and weaknesses. You'll soon be set, even if the first one you try is not the one that you find the best. Hope you fulfill all your personal goals mate. Get them elbows dirty dude!

Thanks for replying. I left my local exercise gym the other morning and was bored so I started looking for some forums to interact with. I found this and figured it was an open site to join? If I'm like a deer in headlights do let me know, Lol. There is a muay thai gym in a city about an hour from me and their site has all kinds of photos showing that it's a reputable gym. This a personal goal of mine I'd really like to try and accomplish but price wise, it won't be like taking a walk in the park down my street. My name is Clay, by the way. My screen name is ZombieMonsterElbowChop because honestly, it sounds somewhat appropriate for a complete novice of the sport looking to get his hands, "or elbows," dirty, Ha.

Sorry to reply with a question, but who are you? One of the best Nak Muay I've met never trained formally. He described himself as 'a bit of a handful everywhere I go,' and, 'a bit of a scrapper.' If that's you, just get a few months and wing it... If not, about 18 months if you train hard two plus nights a week, plus train compulsively at home. Get a heavy bag to develop smoothness and get your training pals to hit you with a bit of meaning once a week. Reading up on the rules where you mean to compete is good too. If you join a decent club with good coaches they'll match you up just fine. You might be better off asking how to find a decent club tbh.

Pretty crazy that all time elite Muay Thai fighters of the Golden Age ended their careers incredibly young. Oley 20 (two fights at 22, but basically done at 20), and Saencherng at 22. Really craziness. Not even (arguably) physical prime, and certainly not mental prime, but some of the best who ever fought. Sylvie trained with Saencherng today, full of physical wisdom almost 40 years from retirement.

Today I watched Chatchai imitating Samson Isaan's interfering, smother style when teaching Sylvie how she should fight. It came out of nowhere, but it warmed my heart so much. and his movements were so beautiful. It's not his style, but he was adopting it. He also told a short story of when he used to be a sparring partner of Samson's at Petchyindee when Samson turned to Boxing. He said that Samson didn't really like sparring him as Chatchai would hurt him with select shots (Chatchai more experienced at the time). He knew how to handle that tempo pressure. So something really special today. Chatchai guiding Sylvie into some of Samson's tactics because it would be really good for her style, but also having experienced them directly himself, and knowing the solves. Such a great instructor.

Can someone return to this post for me and answer a quick question? To make it simple, I have idle time at thirty one years old and would love to have a chance to fight some amateur fights. I've seen composed fights on youtube and some extremely stupid and violent fights. It's all cool to me so I'll manage to get through whatever task I'm offered if this is feasible. Like I said, I'm thirty one with no experience. I'm not trying to come off as arrogant over the keyboard or anything but it really would be an honorable feat if ya'll could help point me in the right direction to be able to do this.

There is a fundamental dichotomy, a catch, which farang will experience when coming to Thailand to dream of becoming recognized in a traditional way. The more "value" you have...in your attempted authenticity, the more you are pulled into a traditional hierarchy in which the fighter holds an extremely low position, and in which your opportunity to develop as a fighter becomes highly restricted to the meaning-system of those held by those high in that pyramid. In short, the more value you achieve, the less opportunity you have. And, for women - because traditional Muay Thai is quite patriarchal - this can be more intensely so. So, if your aim is to develop as a fighter to the height of your capacities, our experience and guiding rule has been: Be very careful about how much "value" you have, especially within traditional concepts of value. This means that to some degree you have to skate by, across some concepts of "authenticity", certain types of recognition or symbolic value (because they can foreclose growth and opportunity), and instead carve out new, creative forms of value to others. This is Sylvie's secret gift and path, the way she carefully avoids kinds or limits of value, while creating value and meaning, so that her horizon as a fighter is not curbed by tradition itself.

I feel like even when I find a voice in Muay Thai with whom I may have some sympathy, discourse itself is impossible, because of the highly political nature of social media life-rafting, everyone grabbing onto their own piece to stay afloat, often using the social media form to assail others, but also signaling their potential place within commerce. The very sense of reachable agreements become divorced from the possible. Allies and potential allies because disagreeable promimates and competitors for attention or even a place in the "idea space". I can't even suitably ask: Do you actually agree with the things you are saying? It's a very odd hyper-real collapse of what discussion is supposed to be. This is why the discussion now can only be had at the level of the muay you build - which is difficult as they fast change the rules to favor foreign schematics and values - the muay becoming the language of a true-ist discourse. The alphabet of limbs and spaces and nothing more...a muay that betters what it disagrees with.

One thing to appreciate is that ONE Championship is really just "Muay American". Not only is it captured by the image of the UFC, it was dreamed up by an American boarding school kid, his imagination of what "Muay Thai" should be, far away from the country and culture of Thailand itself.

I am a fighter from America who lives in Isaan. I belong to TK Yutthana Gym and train under Kru Tom. I wanted to post and share about the boxing camp because non-Thai fighters don't really know about it yet, and it's been a really great place for me and my boxing development. A little bit about the boxing camp... TK Yutthana is a traditional kai muay located in Isaan (Korat specifically). It is run by Tom Yutthana (ยุทธนา เกียรติประภัสร์ "ขุนเข่าตุ้ยนุ้ย"). Kru Tom is a highly respected teacher in Isaan known for developing local kids into high level athletes competing on major platforms like Channel 7 and RWS. Tom was a Golden Age top ranked Channel 7 boxer himself, and hits a rare balance of being both a former elite fighter and also a great manager. He has a sharp technical eye and an ability to easily translate his own stadium experience into building high-level talent across a wide variety of fight styles. I’ve found Tom’s IQ and versatility especially valuable as a very tall boxer with long awkward limbs (think Dieselnoi) whose body type does not fit very well into most fight styles. The training here is extremely good, and the teaching style is very Thai. Which, for me, is perfect. The environment is traditional. The young Thai fighters live on-site, and the camp is very much a working gym with broken bags and stray dogs. There is zero Western-style pedagogy, group classes, or "show-and-tell" style technical breakdowns. Learning is entirely adaptive—done through raw repetition, observation, and direct correction while on pads. The camp is really a sort of fighter ecosystem with boxers of every age and development stage training, fighting on the provincial circuit, learning and growing. If you are receptive to how this camp operates, the environment itself, which is designed to build boxers, forces you to develop as a fighter. It's possible to be integrated directly into the traditional system and get the same training as the Thai youth fighters, which I think is pretty special. I learn the same skills on pads as what is taught to the kids, but I also learn just by watching and being with the kids, who are extremely skilled. Kru Tom himself is approachable and funny, but serious about talent output. For those looking to get ring experience, the camp is tightly connected to the traditional 5-round Isaan festival circuit. Both youth and adult fighters are also regularly fighting in Bangkok. Since I am here full-time, I can act as a bridge for any Westerners coming in which can be helpful when navigating a very traditional Thai environment. This is a very specific type of gym, hitting a rare window for someone who wants an intimate, old-school development environment before commercialization sets in. Contact info Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tkyutthana/ Website: https://tkyutthana.com/ My whatsapp +1(415) 408-8798 (Text me if you have questions about the camp, or if you just want to talk about Thailand)

I confess that in this, the above, there is a sense in these inner beats a secret language. A language which develops intuitionally out of the art of individual fighters and the matrixes of the sport, but also an expressive geometry that - coded and displayed - becomes a communication. An occult communication of human potential, locked in the finitude of its Space...symbolized by the Ring and its ropes. Muay Thai is a dance of freedoms, and in that way at least (ideologically) transcendent.

I should add that these are two nice summations in comment on the original posting of the micro-gallop video on YouTube, in answer to someone who asked for elaboration:

Returning to the OP, one of the interesting things about the comparison of Yodkhupon's movement and Chatchai's inner beats movement is that it points out how futile or insufficient visual imitation can be. Just looking at their shapes they look nothing alike. A large part of the Western and International grasping at and training of Muay Thai is based on visual cuing and bio-mechanical imitation, a great deal of it video-based as well. This visual-mechanical lead just keeps us on the surface of "strikings" and tends to cut away all the living material beneath the strikes, the rhythms and stylistics that animate the strikes and make them so effective (and beautiful as well). Only when you get down into the rhythms, leaving the visual map aside, do these two gallops come together, a secret affinity that connects them, and suggests that they could in practice amplify each other.

For more philosophical thoughts on rhythm (and possibly the failure of rhythm), especially as it relates to "Style", this thread discusses Karuhat, perhaps the most accomplished Muay Thai stylist: a section from the above: Thais learn much more foundational techniques - with far greater variance, and much less "correction" - principally organized around being at ease, tamachat, natural. The techne (τέχνη), the mechanics, that ground stylistics, are quite basic, and are only developmentally deployed in the service of style (& signature), as it serves to perform dominance in fights. The advanced, expressive nature of Thai technique is already woven into the time and tempo of stylistics. This is one reason why the Muay Thai Library project involves hour long, unedited training documentation, so that the style itself is made evident - something that can even have roots in a fighter's personality and disposition. These techne are already within a poiesis (ποίησις), a making, a becoming. Key to unlocking these basic forms is the priority of balance and ease (not biomechanical imitations of the delivery of forces), because balance and ease allow their creative use in stylistics.

This film study also delves into the potentials of Chatcchai's rhythm dynamics, and how they can be experimentally trained with other Muay Bouk styles: The fuller discussions of the film is found here, public and free on Sylvie's Patreon.

Above is two minutes of work with Sylvie and Chatchai this week. He's teaching her his tiny inner gallop step which triggers on-beat much of his boxing strikes. He is explaining that this tiny step is the same as in Muay Thai, especially when throwing lead side weapons. Chatchai is a world class Boxing Kru but he was also a Golden Age Muay Thai fighter, and he sees Western boxing and Muay Thai not in conflict, but rather as built out of comparable rhythms. What is interesting about this is how that small gallop is in the same beat as say the gallop step Yodkhupon shows (just below), in his Muay Khao stalking. It's the iambic pentameter, one might say, on a much smaller scale, close space scale. Once we get below the level of strikes - strikes being a primary preoccupation of Western appropriations and inclusions of Muay Thai "techniques" - we get into a much more important dimension of fighting. Fighting in many ways a battle over space, fighting the fight where you are more comfortable and where your opponent is not (a primary reason why Muay Femeu vs Muay Khao battles are classic), but the battle over space is conducted often through the battle of rhythms. Each fighter is attempting to (somewhat musically) impose their rhythm on the fight, and disrupt the rhythm of the opponent. This is especially important if each fighter has a different rhythm, it becomes a musical duel, but even with similar rhythms you still are trying to get inside the opponent's "beat". This is part of the meaning behind the Muay Thai sway or rock, that has become iconic. It's the beginning of a rhythmic battle, in which a baseline is laid for variance to ensue. But, what is beautiful about the top video, at least in my mind, is how that it secretly connects up to Yodkhupon's space-eating gallop, which allows you to quickly cross over distance and suddenly and suffocatingly be on your opponent. What Chatchai's inner gallop does is allow the gallop to become at any time a trigger for a strike, out of the same rhythm, once you get into the phone booth of the pocket. You don't change rhythms, you just condense it. Seven years ago Sylvie put together this video on the Yodkhupon gallop, and how it relates to the Muay Thai sway. You can even see in it her showing Chatchai's weight transfer rhythm (which he had taught her). But, she had not yet learned Chatchai's inner gallop step, nor seen how Chatchai's rhythm could connect up with Yodkhunpon's gallop...and Yodkhunpon's gallop had not yet been connected up with Chatchais's full Boxing vocabulary arsenal.

Chatchai tells us that he's changed up and started relying less on pad holding in his developing of boxers. Too much padholding been a mistake. The best work is done on the bag. Less mitts, more bag. This while the "combo" has been the primary colonization and extraction of Muay Thai, spreading like wildfire in Thailand, virtualizing the sport away from its embodiment and creativity. (Hell, just ran into this "virtual" padholding.)

I think one of the most salient points about the widening commodification of Muay Thai is that a thing is how it is made...and "how it is made" will produce wildly inferior fighters. Fighters themselves will be shaped by commodifying forces aimed at very different performances, much of it to churn out dreck content, and build an Image of Fighting that is quite perverse to the fighting that has been. New production lines are being made, organized around tourism labor.

It's still mind boggling to me that you change all the rules so less skilled Western fighters can win fights...and then everyone says: Why are Thais so unskilled??? lol. Did you not see the move, the magic trick? They took hard to reach, prestigious titles, or invented new ones, and then transformed them into something to include non-Thais, by changing the sport. It is true that Thais are much less skilled than they used to be, but they downregulated all the superior skills that they still had. Let's just remove all the things Westerners (and others) aren't good at to make our sport popular. Painful to watch, and almost humorous. But, this is the commodification of things. Importantly...things.

The basis of an argument of why Farang one day may be banned from fighting at the National Stadia, the clawing back on the commodification of the National sport, as a National competition treasure. As the argument goes in the book I've been citing (this is a separate article), the West has come to divide the world into "persons" and "things". Persons are very different than things, things are suitable for commodification. But, this is a Western division. The thesis above is that forces of economy work to commodity everything, which is to say, to make everything exchangable with anything else. This is fundamentally in tension with, or even at war with "culture", which ideally works to cordon off exchange, to limit it, and even at an asymptotic limit make nothing exchangeable with anything else. The fixity of strata and social regimes, local exchanges is what generates cultural meaning. Commodification works to erase cultural meaning.

Thank you for doing this. It's great to have Sylvie's magazine scans upload and the outline details you found.