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17 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

And interestingly enough some symptoms can be a sign of too much salt, or too less of it. 

What are too much salt symptoms? A healthy person, generally, will just pee out sodium that is out of balance, as far as I have read (and seems in keeping with what we've experienced). One power lifter, if I recall, says he takes 12 gm of sodium a day (edit in: ??? don't quote me on this, just by my memory), which seems well beyond what pretty much anyone would regularly supplement.

On the other hand Sylvie had an incredible mental shift in upping her salt intake beyond the gov recommend minimum daily requirement. Her mental capacity, in sparring, completely changed, achieving things she had been working on for literally years. (For instance, the ability to hold contradictory ideas at the same time, in flow.) That's a pretty huge performance enhancer.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

What are too much salt symptoms? A healthy person, generally, will just pee out sodium that is out of balance, as far as I have read (and seems in keeping with what we've experienced). One power lifter, if I recall, says he takes 12 gm of sodium a day, which seems well beyond what pretty much anyone would regularly supplement.

 

Water retention can be a symptom of too much or too little sodium. For example swollen hands when running or swollen feet. 

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10 minutes ago, LengLeng said:

Water retention can be a symptom of too much or too little sodium. For example swollen hands when running or swollen feet. 

Ah. I think Sylvie - who has been much more rigorous about her salt that myself - found that the water retention goes away pretty quickly, once the body adjusts to the new amount of salt. The "water weight" falls away (for instance, she walks around at a much lower weight than before). Which is to say, the body now begins to flush any surplus sodium and creates the sodium/potassium balance. It's kind of debatable whether to call this temporary retention a sign of "too much sodium", or simply "more sodium than you were taking before", I guess.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Ah. I think Sylvie - who has been much more rigorous about her salt that myself - found that the water retention goes away pretty quickly, once the body adjusts to the new amount of salt. The "water weight" falls away (for instance, she walks around at a much lower weight than before). Which is to say, the body now begins to flush any surplus sodium and creates the sodium/potassium balance. It's kind of debatable whether to call this temporary retention a sign of "too much sodium", or simply "more sodium than you were taking before", I guess.

Indeed very great for her. However, I cannot use Sylvie as reference point for my N=1 but have to use my own experience/reactions. And to me it has not been as straight forward. I have other factors that come into play with figuring out a good salt/potassium balance. 

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A guy at my gym was asking me about supplements, because he thought I seemed full of energy and he was curious why he felt so drained all the time. If you're training every day, you're going to be tired all the time. It's just the new normal. However, we went through a list of things, including what he was eating, how much he was sleeping, and talked about salt. Salt seemed to be the thing that has helped him the most. But the reason I bring him up is that I laughed out loud when he said he could "rule out sleep" because he'd gotten a pretty good night of sleep the night before and still felt tired on the run. When you're adjusting these factors, it requires a LOT of data before you know if something makes much of a difference or not. One night of shit sleep can knock you out for a few days. One great night won't give you the equal stretch of great training days. You can feel terrible, take some potassium and salt and feel pretty great a very short time later (it works really fast), but you have to keep doing it. It's about maintaining the balance, not taking a shot when you feel one way or another.

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On 6/27/2019 at 3:25 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Yes, but keep in mind - and again she is maybe unique - her calories were/(are??? - probably higher now with more fats) about 1700 per day. But...her calories are pretty close to ZERO every other day, with no drop off of energy. It kind of puts a test to the idea that you have to bump up your calories (from 2000 to whatever number) in order to have energy on a particular day. On days she is fasting, every other day, she is at zero calories. I know it sounds crazy, but it's how it has played out for about 6 months now. Because of how she is fat adapted, or maybe some other factors, her zero calorie days are still strong days. That, we imagine, is what comes from being keto for a long while. Fasting does not change your energy source.

[edit add]: Sylvie sent me her recent 3 day (with fasting days left off) macros she did a short time ago, so including fasting days she's averaging about 1,100 calories/day:

sylvie's macros.jpg

Hello! First of all I want to say that Ive been inspired by Sylvia that it is possible to combine a ketogenic diet with combat sports. Ive looked through all the Patreon resources that you have regarding this topic, and learned quite a bit! I do a ketogenic diet for therapeutic reasons (under the guidence of the researchers/doctors at https://www.paleomedicina.com/), but Im thinking about going back to doing BJJ.

What Im curious about is how much fat Sylvia consumes, compared to proteins. Typical recommendations (Ketogains, Stephen Phinney, etc) say to eat 70-75% calories from fat (roughly 1:1 or 1.5:1 fat-to-protein ratio). They also tend to keep proteins and overall food intake on the high side, often 120-150g protein per day (1.2 to 2.0 grams per kg body weight).

Unfortunately, the picture with Sylvia's macros which youve posted isnt rendering in for me, for some reason. Could you clarify what Sylvia's macros are, and roughly how much food she eats in a day (protein/fat)? And in periods when she is doing loads of training, does she primarily increase fats, or does she just increase the amount of food while keeping the macro-ratio the same? Does she do any type of targeted ketogenic diet (adding extra carbs around training times)?

Personally Ive been recommended to eat a fat-to-protein ratio of 2:1 (80 % calories from fat), and if doing lots of exercise and sports, then additional food should be added at a 3:1 fat-to-protein ratio. Protein should be kept around 50-60g per day, or a bit higher if doing lots of training (0.8g protein per kg bodyweight).


Finally, I want to share this article with you, I think it might be of some interest to you since Ive seen that you have a interest in our evolutionary past and how it affects our sports performance and diet requirements: https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/stone-age-diet-workout. According to the authors, such an animal food based approach to the ketogenic diet is what we are evolutionary adapted to, and they recommend it for athletes/sportsmen. As a sidenote, theyve published papers showing that this particular approach makes the addition of supplements (such as magnesium and electrolytes) unecessary (its aquired through the diet alone, especially through organ meats).

Edited by robinhood
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On 6/27/2019 at 2:36 PM, LengLeng said:

. I also have cold rice and cold potatoes (resistant starch) at times.

Re resistant starch.  Let me put in here my 2 cents in this debate on keto and keto food. 

You dont need to eat it cold!

Im no expert, but in part inspired by Sylvie I have now some experience with keto, Im now 8 months running on keto,.  And had so far success with my keto, with my exercise, thus achieving quite nicely my aims.    I use the milder variation, allowing up to 50g carbs, and this works good for me.  Perhaps because I do train / exercise quite a lot (even if nowhere as much as an active fighter or athlete would do)

OK, so I have heard about resistant starch. I know just vaguely the theory, but did tested it quite a much to get some variety and knowledge. 

 It doesnt break off my ketosis!

Recipe:  I do cook fullcorn/fullseed pasta or  rice, I do overboil it some.  (Full corn/seed rice is what I usually do, but I DID tried with white rice too).

Some cooling down, and into the refrigerator for the night.

Next day  I warm it up as usual for a hot meal, adding suitable extras as tuna fish.  Lotsa of minerale salt (contains Na 60%, K 30%, Mg 10%), lotsa pepper,  some goats cheese,  lotsa coldpressed rapeseed oil.  Rapeseed oil mainly for the fat content, but also gives Omega 3 and vitamine E.

 

I  may eat even a full plate to test all out  of this pasta or rice - 150g??...  It doesnt break off my keto!  Not that I do have any scientific method to know, but Im not feeling differently, not increasing in weigh by water bound to glycogen, and when I do my nordic walking  forced walks the next morning, with double wrist weights on,  I dont get no down periods midways,  as I do while on the usual glukos burning....  Full energhy level.  I may get somewhat tired in the leg muscles, but the energhy level as such is unaffected.

By the same reason I eat happily ready made potato sallad (a good brand with much potatoes, rapeseed oil, few additives,  and hardly any added sugar). Thinking it was boilded and cooled down...

 

EDIT.  So it seems these resistant carbos never goes into the body.  They seems to go further down in the intestines as a prebiotic...  A sort of inverted and perfect "empty calories" and "belly fill"...   It may be its in partly individual, and more research is surely needed, but this is clearly promising.     And yeah, I have seen similiar results on Youtube made by ketosians and lecturers on keto diet.

 

Why, I have even tested ready made meals, "TV-dinners", also frozen small pizzas and pie...  Reasoning they are perhaps resistant starch them too, because they were ready made, and frozen cold...

I was STILL in ketosis....    Quite astonishing.

This is nothing I do recommend to eat these ready made industrially made portions.  Its much better to make real food from real ingredients.  But its nice to know; it is doable if in a pinch or you are longing after an occasional change...   Its also my way to help out our local village shop, buying from them as much I can....

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On 6/26/2019 at 3:37 AM, Carsten said:

Hi,

I have been on full Keto for over year now. My daily carb intake is usually below 20g. The problem I am having is, that every time I train I run out of steam very quickly, especially when doing kicks. Already into my second round (out of 4) during a 1.5 hour training I feel my arms and legs getting heavy and it goes downhill quickly from there on. Do you feel that you have lesser endurance than being on a carbs/glucose diet and if so, how do you deal with it?

Cheers

This is an interesting thread, and you got much good advices to think on and try with.  Among them, this with electrolytes and possibly to better up your breathing technique, as Kevin mentioned.    Faulty breathing technique is a common problem for less experienced fighters: many do witness they get out of breath early, although they train cardio much, and are in good overall shape.  AND havent been hit much either... I suppose a complicating factor here is you must tension up your belly muscles.  In fight, but also in serious training as you want to prepare for fights.

Something which has been hardly mentioned as yet, my 2 cents here; , is vitamines and other minerales. It probably wont hurt with the type of pills; 14 vitamines and 11 minerales a day.  Or if you are sure you have a good all round diet, perhaps every second day.  Also, 1 capsule or 2 of Omega 3 oil wont hurt.

Because the recommended dosage is typically not maximum, but minimum.

So for example, the recommended dosage of vitamine D is very low.  They say 5ug / 200 IE, but many experts tells 50ug / 2000 Ie is more suitable.  Esp in winter season, dark skinned, people whom seldom go out etc.

Many say much vitamine C is good.  But the trick is, vitamine C flushes quickly from the body.  So its wise to get it several times a day.  If you use such a horse dose of 1g tablets; have it solved in a little bottle and sip from it during the day...  Or break off a shard to every glass of your drinking water...

 

Also,  I too think you are possibly eating (somewhat) too little.  You are burning off the kalories, man!  As you describe it, I suspect you would fare well of  more fat.

 

ps.  Talking about such extras:  garlic, or capsules with garlic oil are good too.  INCLUDING  most sticking insects dont like the taste of garlic.  Mosquitos, ticks, etc.   Its no fool proof defence, but you wont be bitten as often as with no garlic.  The capsules have the advantage you wont smell garlic.   The disadvantage with this trick?  Garlic is somewhat poisonous for cats and dogs, so you cant protect your loved pet with this against ticks...

 

 

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On 6/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

I'm going to completely disagree with the general direction of the advice so far. Hey, that's what diet stuff is, lots of differing opinions! I'm basing this on Sylvie's experiences with Keto. The caveat is that not every body is the same, genetic differences will impact the way that keto affects different people. But that proviso aside, I would bet pretty much the house that your problem is electrolytes. It is much harder to get enough electrolytes from keto sources, that's exhibit A. The keto diet also will put your body into electrolyte shedding states, that exhibit B. And...you are training hard, ie, shedding electrolytes, that's C. All three combine together and can push a keto athlete into deficit. Look up the symptoms of potassium depletion, and sodium depletion, and check if they seem familiar. I wager they are.

Again, differing in opinion, if you are fat adapted you should not need carbs to get you through a hard session. Sylvie trains harder than anyone I've ever seen in the gym, she's a total cardio monster, and she's been fasting every other day since maybe January, keto on her eating days. She's also has fought 8 of her last 9 fights on fasting days. No carbs needed. No drop in production. In fact on those fasting days she's reported even better energy at times. The point of keto is to switch over to your fat stores as the primary energy source - the numbers thrown out on this I've seen is that the body holds 30,000 calories at any one time. You should not bonk. The key is that she is rigorous about electrolyte supplementation, which can be a pain. If you go to the pinned post in this sub forum you can read what she says about sodium, and about electrolytes in general.

To add onto that, she hasn't measured her calories in a while, but if I recall when she did it was under 2000. She's small bodied, but she is not pounding the calories. The key, big time, has been electrolytes. It gave her endurance, and it also cleared her mind and improved her mentality (especially in the case of sodium).

Keep in mind, this is based on Sylvie's experiences, and she might be a freak of nature. There is no fighter I've ever heard of who regularly fights on fasted days. There are other elements to consider as well. Sylvie might also have developed really good habits for how to keep her body in the right endurance zone for the long hours of training in Thailand, that too could have an impact, she may be more efficient. Genetic differences, higher levels of fat adaption, and efficient training habits could add up to significant edges. But, we kind of came to the conclusion that she had been electrolyte deficient for almost 6 years in Thailand, this despite regularly taking electrolytes in her workout water. Once she added potassium she experienced a big experiential bump, then when she added sodium, she experienced another one. You need to calculate the mg you need, and figure out strategies on how to get them and remain in ketosis. If I'm right you should get immediate improvement and relief from your crashing.

I would calculate how many mg you are getting in your regular diet of each core electrolyte, and then check that against recommended daily allowances. Then think about boosting those allowances by 10-20% maybe (just throwing numbers out there), because of electrolyte shedding. With sodium you can go even higher (a good book on upping salt and why). Where are you at vs where you want to be?

The Sodium-Potassium Pump a fundamental chemical mooring of how the body's cells work. When it isn't right or is threatened, a lot of things are impacted.

Less than 2000 calories AND all this hard working!   Wow!    If you would say 6000 calories a day, it would be easier to understand...   Less than 2000 calories sounds more alike an office clerk, whom wants to have control and not get fatty...  

So what is going on?  Is Sylvie a freak of nature,  OR we must count calories totally differently when in ketosis-diet, compared with the usual "glucosis"-diet? 

  Of course, there are few serious athletes on Keto. While all the usual litterature and experience is about athlethes living on the usual glucos-based diet.   And its these whom must load with up to 6000 (or even more) calories a day while in heavy training.  Or some workers in heavy jobs. At least, the males do.

Its  possible males need more, and hard workings males even more,  than hard working women.   ( I remember a russian film, with two siblings. Bro was doing Deca-athlethics, sis was doing gymnastics, both on top elite niveu.  Bro ate as much he managed,  sis ate sallades barely covering the plate...  Being lean was more importanf for her than for him.  Still, big contrast! - this is an anecdotical example, but perhaps still interesting.   Ps.  I saw the film as a kid, so I cant swear her portion was that dramatically smaller than his.  What WAS a dramatic difference, was him eating as much meat he wanted, while she ate just groceries and green sallads. Not because she didnt had, but because she held a strict training discipline and diet.  Everything to keep fit and lean!)

 

So, my question, guess and hypothesis here and now, is,  you dont need as much calories on keto as compared with when on "glucosis."  Its much more efficient, amount wise.  Thus you must count totally differently.

Idea:  This could in part explain how poor workers and small poor peasants managed in older times: they did lived de facto in ketosis.

No sugar, few carbos, no quick carbos.  The bread or rice they had wasnt white, but unrefined whole seed one.   And they ate once or twice a day, so they were de facto on a 16-8 diet....  Ie, de facto on ketosis most of the time.    They were lean, but they managed to work hard the whole long day, men and women....

 A control question re Sylvie.  I suppose you Sylvie didnt always lived on keto.   What was yours Sylvie calorie-intake when you lived on the usual food, with the usual glucosis-glykogen combustion??   (sorry for my uneven english; english is my third language).

1.  When you was a happy young woman, just doing some light training as most healthy persons do.

2.  When you Sylvie started to do serious training and began the fighter carrieer??

 

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