Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu
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Posts posted by Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu
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23 hours ago, SPACEDOODLE said:
So here is the question: What should I do in fron tof the mirror and what should I be paying attention to at the same time?
Thanks so much!
If you watch my sessions with Chatchai, he looks at me in the mirror and stands in front of me to kind of "eyeball calibrate" my form. I stole it from him. It's totally like he's looking down a pool cue. I noticed that he's seeing where my weight is blowing out on one side or the other, if my one shoulder is higher than the other, etc. So, now I look for that kind of thing in the mirror for myself. I call it "breaking the frame" when my body leans or bends instead of the weight transferring all together. That's what I use the mirror for.
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16 hours ago, Gibu said:
Also, as a side note, do Thai trainers always emphasize middle kicks in training?
Because middle kicks score highly, low kicks don't score much at all unless you do visible damage or are off-balancing your opponent. Rambaa (in the Library) has amazing low kicks. He jumps on them, so they're super nasty and come at a chopping angle. He also stings the inside of the leg, just to annoy the opponent a lot, but it hurts after only one or two. I've had trouble walking after sessions with him for that reason.
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10 hours ago, Sheepdog said:
I trained in Lanna from 95 to 98 off and on. I thought someone may be interested in what Lanna first looked like. This was right after Andy (RIP) opened the gym (if I recall he was involved with another gym in the city "Joe's Gym", I don't remember the name).
This is awesome! I remember seeing pictures of Taywin from not event that long before I met him, and he looked SO different.
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Budgeting for unexpected costs is a really good tip. You never know when you suddenly have a pretty hefty expense. Additionally, I've seen countless guys come through who have a pretty reasonable budget for themselves, then leave after only a month because they've blown through their nest egg by eating western food every day, fending off boredom by going to movies or out drinking or whatever else they didn't budget in because they thought they could get by on a simple life and simply didn't follow that plan.
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19 hours ago, Tim Macias said:
1. Breath
2. Use the waist
3. Transfer weight
Thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone offering their support and encouragement!
tm
I love your write up. Something that I see when I watch his waist is how his knees bend. They don't bend like a soccer or tennis player, they don't even bend like any other martial arts that I've seen, but they bend like a Golf swing. Keep in mind, I've never played golf in my life and I'm not truly adroit at watching it, but the twist, to me, looks like golf.
The first thing I noted when walking into the room yesterday and sitting behind you was your breathing. I smiled and pointed it out to the General, I said, "he remembers to breathe... not like me." Even being able to hear it is more "right" than you can imagine. But your observation of the subtle differences means you do, actually, know what he's talking about more than you might give yourself credit for. I reckon his question to you about whether you know what he's talking about is actually if you know where to look, or what aspect he's picking on. I watch my trainer Kru Nu show someone a punch and they stare at his fist. It makes no sense. They're not looking anywhere near where the important part is.
His balance is just like he's from another planet. He never, ever draws outside the lines, so to speak. He never breaks his frame. He never leans or bends. I thought Sagat had pretty incredible ability for maximum efficiency out of minimum movement... but the General even complained that Sagat couldn't do his uppercut right. Hahahaha.
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1 hour ago, OldBones said:
I've had the fortunate experience of living/training in Thailand many years ago (2000 & 2004), so I think I have a general idea of how adult training breaks down. However, now that I have kids of my own, I always wondered about Thai kids just starting out their muay thai journeys.
Scouring the internet for info, I've come across a lot of articles critical of children training and fighting muay thai. In contrast, I've listened to interviews with Francis and Boom Watthanaya who demonstrate the positive impact of muay thai on their community's kids. Furthermore, I've read Sylvie's article about the rambunctious "Jade Dragon Set" at her gym.
That all said, I was wondering, for those of you who've lived/trained in Thailand at gyms with kids just starting out (I'm talking age 6-8), what do their training sessions look like (I'm talking specifics--number of kilometers ran, rounds of shadowboxing, heavy bag, clinching, etc)? I'm really interested in the detailed progression from pee wee to stadium professional. At what point do the pups just start on the same program as the big dogs?
Any info would be super appreciated. Thanks all!
--J
It depends a lot on the gym, as well as if there are other little kids training. For example, when I was training with Phetjee Jaa and her brother Mawin, they had a little cousin who trained but not too seriously. So, he came on the morning runs but never ran the full 5-7 km, but would run a bit and then jump on the back of the motorbike that accompanies fighters when they run. (There is almost always a motorbike or car following fighters, as a safety precaution against dogs, cars, kids getting left behind, etc.) However, at a gym where there are more kids of the same age training, it might be more structured with them running together.
The Jade Dragon Set only train in the evenings, after school. They arrive when the regular training is winding down and they have to wait their turn. They jump on the tires and tear around in the smaller ring until a trainer is ready to pay attention to them, and some days they don't get formal training at all. Lately the younger fighters (teenagers) have been holding pads for them, but if one has a fight Kru Nu or Kru Gok will hold for that one. They do drills, mainly, not so much "freestyle" padwork that you'd see in older students. They have to march back and forth in shadow, knee against the ropes 200 times, kick the pad 50 kicks each side, etc. They sometimes kick the bags but it's more or less counting out 100 kicks or knees or whatever, not what you'd call "bag work." They spar and clinch with each other, but usually 2 rounds (that's about 10 minutes). Usually that ends when someone starts crying, but if there's enough of them the others keep going and the one who is crying sits out for a bit until he's ready to start again, and if he doesn't want anymore he's never usually forced.
So, it's kind of a version of regular training, but not the same intensity.
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These fights happen more than is acknowledged, but video of them is rare. So Kevin and I put up this one with Buakaw, one of the best female fighters in Thailand, who has run out of opponents and probably wasn't training very much at this time. But that's also super common.
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7 hours ago, fightchase said:
I visited a temple for my birthday this year and had no clue what to do. I simply asked 2 woman that were taking some photos and they actually walked me through everything it was an amazing experience. I know I could do the same for this, I was just wondering if anyone had first hand experience having it done. As for what the proper offerings and things like that.
If there is an assistant to the monk somewhere, that's always an appropriate person to ask. If there's nobody to ask, you can tell the monk that you would like a blessing ขอให้พรมงคล (koh hai pon mongkol). It's appropriate to offer something to the monk before he does the blessing. You can often buy these at the temple, right at the front and they come in kinds of packets or baskets of pre-set items. Usually they're toiletries or things that are needed to be shared by the monks for day-to-day living. But you can always offer fruit, flowers, packaged foods like soy milk or those yogurt drinks. It doesn't need to be (and likely shouldn't be) fancy.
Once you've communicated what you're asking for, put the Mongkol on a tray or just hand it to the monk (women can't hand it directly, so put it on a piece of cloth that the monk will have in front of him, or on a tray). On your knees, bow to him 3 times, touching your hands and forehead to the floor like in the Wai Kru in the ring. Then sit with your feet behind you or under you with your hands in a "wai" as the monk does whatever he does with the mongkol. He'll likely bless you at the same time, with the water splashing, but once he's done with the mongkol he'll put it back on the tray or cloth or hand it back to you. Wai to him the same way you started, the 3 touches of the head to the floor, thank him and leave a donation in an envelope at the appropriate place in the temple for this. Don't give it to him. Put it in the box or whatever they have there. The amount is up to you, but 100 Baht is perfectly enough. But the fruit or gifts you can give to him at the start, after you've done your first "wais".
In my experience, monks LOVE blessing mongkols. They get excited to see farang fighters doing this. So, just smile and be polite and any of the miscommunications or awkwardness is no problem.
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1 hour ago, fightchase said:
I was just wondering if anyone had first hand experience having it done. As for what the proper offerings and things like that.
I'll try to answer this tonight.
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21 hours ago, Lisa said:
So yeah I think that part of the shame also was that I and people around me expected me to win. I wasn’t better than the woman they had been down talking.
This is a poison of western fight culture. I've learned to never underestimate anybody. There's no such thing as an easy fight, really and truly. I was listening to Kru Nu tell me about how this opponent couldn't fight me, which is a Thai phrase that is often used to imply that skill levels are just crazy different. But even after telling me this, he paused and then told me never to underestimate anybody. He said anything can happen in a fight, it depends on how important it is to the other person, etc. I've felt that in my opponents. And I think that when your opponent is talked down - and people mean well when they do that, even though it's so shitty - it takes something from your own heart. It makes it seem less important. It allows you, even for a moment, even if you know better, to let your guard down a little. You SHOULD have an appropriate level of fear, or awareness, for every single person you will ever get in the ring with. Even if on paper it looks like there's no way you could lose. It's a fight. You've prepared for it. It's your preparation that will let you win, not your expectations about your opponent.
You can fight anyone, Lisa. Literally anyone. You can be the one who everyone is down-talking and you can win in those conditions. Your opponent has the same possibilities. But don't doubt yourself or believe in yourself based on who or what your opponent is. Believe in yourself for what you've done, for who you are, for the work you've put in. None of that guarantees a win. But you can't disappoint yourself if you know you've done the work. Just do the work. The fight is part of it, not the result of it.
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21 hours ago, emma said:
I actually haven't fought now for over a year and a half, and I go back and forth constantly on whether or not I still want to. Sometimes, all I want is to get back in there. Other times, I'm fine with letting that part of my life go. It's bittersweet to think of that, but the important thing is that those feelings are coming from myself, rather than someone else who thinks they know what's best for me.
This part feels particularly important for female athletes. @Kaitlin Rose Young (and of course you and me, Emma) and I have had a few back and forths about how unique it is for women to be asked when they're going to stop fighting, even after very objectively successful fights! But I love your point here, that whatever you're thinking or feeling about the progression of your Muay Thai career (or your Power Lifting) is coming from YOU. That's so, so hard in the world of sport, where you have trainers and mentors, teammates, "fans" or people who support you (or don't), etc. Everyone has an opinion and, for all the reasons that be, a lot of people feel justified in voicing those opinions to women, especially. It can be hard to tune it out. It can be hard to go against it. It can even be hard to dismiss it when you KNOW it's total bullshit. Which is crazy.
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18 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
This is the interesting, vital thing. At its highest the fighter does not seek to extinguish the fear. This would negate the relation. She/He seeks to preserve it, and act it out in terms of courage itself, to create a continuity between fear, being dumbstruck, and action (finding words). And all the things we love about fighters, each and every style of fighting and be defined by the quality of that fighter's relationship to the gap, that space sitting between fighters. How much do they stand it in, how often? Can they persist in it? Do they avoid it? Do they rush through it? And, at a deeper, more poetic sense, how do they relate to the gap in terms of their own rhythm? What metrical expression do they use to work through that gap, gauge it, negotiate it? For me, when I watch fights now, I don't even watch strikes anymore. I mean, yes, I see them, but my eye is locked onto the gap between fighters. What is the relationship between each fighter and the gap? It's the glue, the Autarchy of The Relation, which puts all the elements together. If you read poetry, it's like discovering that there was a ruling meter all along, beneath the words.
This is that thing about how animals "chon" and fighters "su," that I saw in Thai a while back. The biting down on a mouthpiece, closing your eyes and just rushing in to deliver a clashing attack is, indeed, driving headlong into fear in some ways. It has its own merit. But it's not the same thing as interacting with the fear itself, like sitting in it and shaping it. Ducking into a wave versus surfing it.
I'm most interested in this achievement-as-stopping-point that you used Goggins to illustrate. This whole notion that you do something hard with the end of it in mind, where you get the seal of approval or the pin or whatever else that shows that you've "done" it, rather than that you can always keep doing it. That's what belts are like. That's what rankings are like. But then you have someone like Dieselnoi, who sneers at these fighters who become champion and then become lazy, no longer training hard because they've arrived, or whatever. His whole heart screams with this ferocity that, once you're champion, you've got to hold the throne and so you're training even harder, because those fuckers are coming for the king. That's a man who can sit with fear. The others are holding their breath and ducking through it.
So many people ask me if I still get nervous. I must be so desensitized after so many fights. But how can you be? Every fight is a fight. They don't stop being fights. They don't stop being challenges. The game hasn't changed so that now people aren't trying to beat me, hurt me, humiliate me. All that stays the same. All that is the scary part. So why would the nerves disappear? Watching these fighters in space, how they fill it up instead of dancing around it, that's the amazing part about letting fear be part of the process. Not a tool within the process that then has a expiration. Literally part of the process the way water is part of a river.
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Some folks have asked for an update on Phetjee Jaa. There's not much to say, other than that she's now training with the Thai National Boxing Team, travels occasionally for amateur tournaments and generally takes Silver or Bronze in those competitions at 51kg. (She won Silver a few days ago in Japan). So, she's living in Bangkok, training with the National Team. Muay Thai is more or less in her past now. She'll be 18 at the turn of the year this year, I believe.
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On 2/5/2019 at 11:46 AM, Kaitlin Rose Young said:
Here's the crazy thing, almost none of the guys in that room were finishing people with strikes. It wasn't transfering to the ring. The big guys had become accustomed to using their power on smaller people that they did not have on their opponents, and the smaller guys would give opponents too much respect as they were used to being hit harder than an opponent their size ever could.
Wow, your answer was really thorough and insightful for me. I am getting more sparring now at my gym than I ever have in my 7 years in Thailand. I consider myself only moderately experienced in sparring, given that I've had access to it so infrequently. That said, I have also experienced more significant injuries from sparring than I have in fights, with the exception of cuts. My nose was broken in a fight only once, but in training 3 times. Sometimes shit happens and it's that we spend way more time training than we do in the ring, so the probability is a factor, but in every single case of my nose being broken, it was my sparring partner getting emotional. I'll take some responsibility for the last one, I got pretty emotional, too. But I couldn't do that kind of damage to him.
Your point about it not transferring to the ring is so important. That's, for me, the whole question about hard versus light sparring - or really whatever it is that you're working on in sparring. If you need to be "tough" and that makes it into the ring, great. That's one of the things about watching Arjan Surat at Dejrat and how fucking hard he is on some of those fighters, is that you see them handle themselves in the ring and you're like, "oh, I know where he learned that." If it was just the hardness and the guys folded in the ring or were bullies in the ring, the exact same "great training" that I see would be shit training... for them.
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4 hours ago, cinematic_loop said:
Hey. I have a question regarding sparring.
What is the best way to progress in sparring? Sometimes I feel overwelhmed when an aggressive fighter is coming towards me. I try to step to the side but then I kinda get stuck in my guard taking shots and when i try to answer back they dodge my punches . I feel like my footwork might not be good enough or too slow.
Footwork is a very good place to start, as it's what allows literally everything else to function. For me, being able to "see" is the main difference between being overwhelmed and being able to wait out an combination and fire back. Everyone has patterns - ever single person - so generally you can start to read or see where those are and know when to counter in the middle of or after a flurry. There are different ways of being able to "see," but 100% it requires you to be calmer, which means focusing on your breathing and knowing literally what you're looking at (where are you looking when you spar? The face, the chest, the hips, the legs?). Trying different areas of focus is a place to start. Focusing on your breathing is a great start. Working on only one thing, like a hook or a kick and seeing when it lands and when it doesn't.
All of this depends on you not being overwhelmed though, so step one is just focusing on how to bring your heart rate and stress down. I decide on some days that I'm just going to let myself get hit in the guard, so that I can find the holes in it, feel secure in it, learn to see out of it, etc. There's this guy I spar who hits too hard, so I practice this with him because I don't want to get clipped with his power if I'm open. And there's a guy I spar who is too fast for me, so I also use this approach with him, to find momentary openings.
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10 hours ago, plmuaythai said:
I'm looking to go to thailand for a month or two to do muay thai while I have a break before starting my new job. Because I travel for my job, I've trained really on and off (usually like 3 months on and 6 months off) for the past few years at a bunch of random gyms. I want to train in Chiang mai, and I'm trying to determine if I should train at Lanna or Hongthong. My goal is to do amateur fights in the US once I start my new job and stop traveling so much for work. Do you have a suggestion on which gym is better for someone in my situation? Also, I heard that Lanna has a larger ring for men sparring and a smaller one for women sparring...is this true?
I agree with Kevin that you ought to just try both before committing to one or the other based off of a coin-toss. Hongthong is big, has two rings, has female fighters and lots of westerners. Joe and Gen are awesome, they have some other trainers working for them but I'm not sure how many now or who's there. They're fairly technical, in the sense that they drill things. It's largely a westerner focused gym. And it's outside of the city, though not far.
Lanna (I assume you mean the one in the old location, under new ownership) is going to be largely Chinese, a few westerners, and some Thai kids. There are, indeed, two rings and women are only allowed in one of them. Daeng is the trainer to look for at Lanna, he's friendly and can help with any kind of technical instruction. They have some younger trainers, who are fun and playful, and as far as I've heard from their new structure, they are much more organized in their training than they used to be. They're right by the foothills of the mountains, near the university, you can walk to anything and get into the main part of the city in just a few minutes by a share-cab "song taew" truck.
You don't know how is at either place until you're there. Whether you have clinching/sparring partners your size or not. If there are women there at that time or not. If you like the training at either one or not. Check them both out and trust your own judgement based on the experiences you have actually in the space.
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I do wonder why I have such an aversion to this Alter-Ego thing. An immediate thought that comes to mind is a comparison to acting. I'm a good actor, I enjoy it, I like impersonating people - I do a very good Karuhat strut. But I'm being Karuhat; it still belongs to him in a way. So I'm "performing," not identifying. I can't remember what actor it was, but someone famous enough to be profiled in a magazine I would read said that s/he liked acting because it allows one to experience very different life choices, without any of the consequences of actually having chosen those things for yourself. I find that kind of bullshit, honestly. I find actors who say they "lose themselves in the role" to be full of shit, too. You're either taking yourself into different silhouettes or you're keeping parts of those characters in yourself; or both. But in my mind, there's no such thing as without consequence. Which I think is what the whole idea of an Alter-Ego is.
I understand the notion that your fighter-persona has permissions that you, in your everyday life, don't. I don't go around trying to knee people's guts out at the supermarket. But I can't conceive of having a different set of values for in the fight and out of it. I'm all unified theory, I guess. If I need to be more merciless in the ring, then I need to be more merciless in my life. I can't hold a value in one context and not in another. There is no escaping the consequences of actions just because of context. You either live a value or you don't. And maybe because it's something that I can't quite wrap my own heart around, I am tending to assume a much larger divide than is real for those of you who do feel these alters... like, it's not so much Jekyll and Hyde as it is Big Alice and Small Alice. Big Alice can pick up the deck of cards and toss them around, Small Alice can't. I get that. But they're not separate identities to me.
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1 hour ago, SunAndSteel said:
I have read that certain areas of Thailand produce certain styles of Muay Thai.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any detailed information, but from what I could gather, it seemed that in a particular region of the country more emphasis will be put on a certain aspect of the fight ( for example: clinch), while in another a fighter will use a particular guard. It would be interesting to try and draw a map of the different fighting styles according to the different areas of the country.
I don't think this has to do with the actual style of the single fighter (Muay Khao, Muay Mat, etc.): it rather seems to be something more "at the source", it seems to have to do with how every part of Thailand developed its own branch of Muay Thai.Does it make sense?
I don't think this is the case. It might be that the way Muay Thai is watched and scored in the provinces allows for more clinch, so the fighters rely more on clinch, whereas fighting in Bangkok the clinch is broken more quickly, so fighters need to make adjustments to that, etc. But it's not divided by style in any way that a casual, or even familiar eye would detect.
A few of the men I've talked to who are of the Golden Age age (meaning now they're in their mid-40s and older), talk about how Central Thailand (Bangkok, Chachoengsao, Chonburi and maybe stretching into Ayuthaya area) the fighters are both skilled and strong (i.e. the best), with a nod to the South for being the same; but they complained that Northeastern fighters are strong but not skilled, and Northern fighters are skilled but not strong. I honestly always register these assessments as being bias toward one's regional identity. No Northerner would say the same, nobody ever says nice things about Isaan and yet, tons of the best fighters come from Khon Khaen (Karuhat, Pudpadnoi, Somrak) who are very skilled and yet there's no credit given.
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Changes to Lumpinee Stadium:
Not sure if you all will be interested in the kind of "what's going on in Thailand" news, but I find it interesting and will be posting things here. Recently, there was a big meeting at Lumpinee with the head of the stadium. Lumpinee is run by the army and the man who is the head of the stadium is a high ranking officer, whose face was showing up in photos and and reports of this meeting, which seemed to be focused on 1) creating a new set of enforcement for punishing fighters who "lom muay" (that's "taking a fall" or "throwing a fight" to us), with a specification that "dek" (the word for children, but also colloquially used for "young") will be given a second chance; as well as some rules I'll have to get help fully understanding from Kru Nu, which seemed to be about fighters who change gyms and their alliances. And 2) how to drive more business to the Lumpinee, Ram Intra area throughout the week so that it's not just the 3 days on which they have promotions. When New Lumpinee opened, it was hit hard by being a completely inconvenient location and audience attendance plummeted. There are some things to do over there, but there's construction on the overpass and traffic is terrible, so the financial struggle at the stadium is real.
The part that's interesting is this "lom muay" part, because within a couple days of this meeting, this fighter was accused of throwing his fight. Aekgarat Tor. Dor. Gudanamsai is seen in this video returning backstage after the referee called his fight off. He was out of power and after the third round the referee announced the fight was dubious and had both fighters exit the ring. I've seen this before - the first time Kevin and I saw it on TV we had no idea what was happening. It's not frequent, but sometimes a referee will decide that one fighter is not really fighting, or trying to throw the fight, and he'll stop the fight right there and all bets are cancelled. Sometimes fighters are suspended, sometimes there's an investigation and it's ruled that it was not being thrown; and sometimes the referee is suspended, in the case that his call for stopping the fight is deemed a method of cheating for gambling purposes. Suspensions are uncommon. But the disdain that fighters who are known to have thrown fights are spoken about, demonstrates this is a big sore spot on the face of Muay Thai.
In this video, the military police come into the back room. He mostly just stays there to keep the fighter and trainers from going anywhere, then escort them to a meeting with this high ranking officer who runs Lumpinee. There were photos of that meeting in posts after this. Ultimately, the fighter explained that he was a replacement for this match and had only a week to prepare, which is why he had no power in the fight. He was not suspended or punished, ultimately. But in the video there's a guy who comes and is just screaming at this fighter and his trainer. You get a good glimpse of Thai style "not my business" with folks in the background, including another fighter who is getting ready for his match. The guy who is yelling is a gambler and his language is harsh. You'll get gamblers screaming at fighters from the stands after fights, but it's another thing for them to come backstage. I find it interesting that the military police officer is only concerned with keeping an eye on the fighter and trainers and has no care at all for controlling the gambler. In the comments on the facebook share of this video, my favorite is from a guy who, using very harsh language himself, directs his comment at the gambler and says, "if you've got so much energy to yell at the fighter like this, why don't you go fight the opponent yourself."
Ultimately, one of the reasons I'm sharing this is that the proximity of this meeting and announcement of punishment for throwing fights to an event in which a fighter is accused is highly performed. To have published photos of the meeting and then published photos of a fighter being accused, taken to the office, and ultimately let off with a warning all appears to be a "we made a rule and watch us enforce it!" kind of thing.
https://www.facebook.com/190387948278006/posts/360860344564098/
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I 100% get what you're getting at with the Dexter vs. Conan example, but I chafe at the serial killer comparison because I believe you have to actually be quite empathetic to be a good fighter. You have to know what fear and pain and shame feel like to be able to impart them on your opponent - and to a softer degree your partner in training scenarios. But yes, definitely not the "beast mode" of the Conan approach.
I've found that for myself, a degree of insistence is what works the best for me in training. I'm slightly pissed off, but not in a way that's directed at anyone or anything. It's just that my version of slightly pissed allows me to let go of judgement, I think. There is a kind of Hannibal Lector quality to feeling the emotional and energy state of your partner and calmly guiding them toward the deep end. Like, "you look close to quitting, let me just nudge you a bit." I've personally had a hard time learning how to have that "killer instinct," or your version of a kind of sociopathic instinct, in aiding your partner's weaknesses because it feels shitty. For a very long time, if I knew that what I was doing was putting my partner in an emotionally difficult place, I'd back off. Even though in part of my mind I know that's no favor at all. There's a fighter at my gym who is the universal little brother. He's literally the little brother of one fighter, but he's the youngest (without being the 7-8 year olds, who are kind of their own set), and he's a butterball who gives up and hates being tired, so Kru Nu is always working to toughen him up. Like, if he can't finish the morning run in 1 hour, he has to run more. A few times, he's been running on the road, all of us in the van with the doors open just kind of crawling alongside him. It's punishment, for sure, but it's not just him. If Alex comes in behind so-and-so, he has to run extra or do pushups or whatever also, and he's kind of a "star" of the gym.
So, I struggle with this because I have a compassionate impulse to get out and run with the little brother. Just so he has a partner, a friend, something to make it less all-eyes-on-you. But I also know that a lesson is being taught and by jumping out and doing that, it comes off as "motherly," which I 1 million percent do not want to associate myself with in the gym. It's that same struggle when I feel my partners wanting to quit, or having a hard time, or hitting an emotional wall. I've been there. And I've had people ease up on me - so I know that just lets me stay exactly how I am. And I've had people not ease up, and I know that helps me grow. So, it's a weird version of "serial killer compassion," as it were.
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3 minutes ago, LengLeng said:
Btw well aware this might be a topic for the women's roundtable, but despite several emails I get no access to it. Which also mean I cannot tell whether this has already been discussed or not. I also believe this is a topic men should be able to have access to and learn from as most of the times, men are so blissfully unaware of shit women have to deal with.
give me a minute, we'll look into the Women's Only access problem.
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9 minutes ago, LengLeng said:
I am interested in hearing other people's experience about these things. Do you care at all? Would you advise visitors how to dress?
I've noticed a change in what the female fighters in Chiang Mai wear to fight in, now versus when I was living there 5 years ago. Chiang Mai is a more conservative area of Thailand and when I was living there, a lot of the fighters wore T-shirts, so even a tank-top was kind of exposed. Now almost all the women fight in long sports bras, kind of crop-top length with no sleeves. Thai women wear their shorts higher, so only a little torso is exposed, but it's a big change to my eyes. And it's very prevalent. I couldn't say where that change has come from, whether it's influenced by more western women training and fighting up in Chiang Mai or not. Because it's the norm now, there's no gasping on an individual basis (because it's so common), but the way these fighters are photographed and promoted on the Thai-language pages is definitely not lacking the male gaze.
I also see the exact same breakdown that you do, in terms of fitness vs fighter gyms. Part of this is, of course, class as well. Middle-class and Hi-So women training Muay Thai are almost always in tights and some kind of put together outfit, but rarely are their shorts too short, lacking undershorts, or just a sports bra. Not at least in what I've seen. My gym is not only a fighter's gym, but it's a family space. Occasionally we get women whose butt cheeks are literally hanging out the bottom of their shorts, or the shorts go see-through when they get wet and you can see their underwear. In general these women are not acting as though they're looking for attention. It's truly just what they're comfortable with from their own cultures. In general, at my gym, these women are working hard and are earnest in their training, and their DGAF attitude is quite literally not even being aware of the attention they are garnering. Further, because my gym only has me as a comparison, they only know that Sylvie dresses like this or that, not what "women" dress like in the space. I've seen it where there are 3 of us, one takes her shirt off to just be in the sports bra and the 3rd woman sees this as permission, or a sign that this is acceptable, and takes hers off as well. For the most part, at my gym, the men are well-behaved and don't make their notice obvious - although they do note it to each other in ongoing discussions that these women aren't aware of because they don't understand Thai.
I've changed how I dress over the years. Emma commented on her last visit to my gym that I was wearing a mesh shirt, which I never would have done in the years she's known me prior. On a scale of revealing, this is pretty low. But it's still a step away from complete conservative dress. I'm with you in that I wish I could just throw caution (and reality) to the wind and wear whatever feels good in that moment, either because it's so fucking hot or because it makes me feel confident to wear it. But I still believe that the advantage to carefully not sexualizing my presence in the gym is a huge advantage in every way. And Thai culture sexualizes clothing at a line pretty far from where it becomes shocking to the west. I'm quite sure that the shirt I wear upon entering the gym is appropriate, but once it's wet and clinging to me, it's a whole other thing. So there's a kind of Catch 22 in that you have to wear SOMETHING and you can't give it so much thought that it's constraining you, but you should give it some thought. And, like I said about the 3 women in the gym where one dresses this way and one dresses another, in any given gym, there's a temperature reading you can take to what's normal among the women there at any given time. There is power and safety in numbers.
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I'm not actually sure what you're asking, so I'm just throwing in observations and maybe they're meaningful for what you're pondering and maybe not.
In my personal experience, I've always been either the only woman at the gym, or one of very few women at the gym. The ratio of men to women creates a completely lopsided social arrangement, wherein what role or quality women offer to the gym is heavily obscured by that inequality. In a gym where there are 10-20 men, the competitiveness they have with each other is an entirely different thing than if there were 2 of them, which is the thing women face. I find myself immediately excited by the presence of another women; annoyed and simultaneously happy to almost always be ordered to work with her (annoyed because it's simply our shared gender, happy because we have a shared gender); and disgusted with myself for having an automatic sense of competitiveness. Not competitiveness in the sporting sense, like how men might get to enjoy having a spar to see who's slicker, but competitiveness in the "there are limited social resources here and I now have to protect my hard-earned position" kind of competitiveness. Which is shit. Which is why you get women throwing each other under the bus to be teacher's-pet, or creating cliques when there are only 3 of us, or not being supportive despite there only being fucking 2 of us. And yet, there's a simultaneous support. It's like "frenemy" once someone is there for longer than a few days. It's supportive, the excitement and mutual aid is real, but so is the feeling of a threat.
But I've never come across a feeling that men and women at the gym have markedly different motivations. The feelings of power, personal security, potency, achievement, attractiveness that come from fitness and sport activities feel good to both men and women alike. There's a difference in who feels entitled to those feelings early on, but it kind of evens out over time, I think. Like, men feel badass and claim that feeling way before they actually are, and women claim it way after they've already been labeled that way by others - generally speaking. So, why men and women "should" do martial arts is pretty similar down the gender line: because they like it and it feels good. How they handle when it doesn't feel good seems more divided. Men seem to disappear from the gym when it's difficult or their ego is hurt; women tend to just heap pressure on themselves and put themselves in corners - albeit still working - until someone tells them they're worthy of attention again. At least in Thai gyms, in both these examples the correct thing to do is apologize if there was an infraction, otherwise always just carry on as if nothing at all has ever happened, ever.
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It's hard to care about anything when you feel as drained and unsure of bowel control as I did in that fight, haha. But it's a beautiful example, being sandwiched between two other fights, because it demonstrates how it doesn't matter. Each fight has meaning, and importance, but they don't MATTER. None of them... and somehow all of them. I was fine and fought, clinched with Pettonpung and then got food poisoning at dinner that night - terrible night and day, fight, then I'm okay again the next day (albeit tired) and you go fight again. It's like 0 and 1, as if fights are a binary, "good" or "bad," win or lose. None of them are like that.
I did laugh when you said you fear the day that you just react with "ho hum" to feats like this, because that's how I respond to my own achievements sometimes. I need friends like you for perspective. So, thank you for that.
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Best Recovery Advice For Full Time Training in Thailand
in Open Topics - men and women - General Muay Thai Discussion and News
Posted
I get oil massages regularly, sometimes opting for just foot/leg, and only occasionally get the Thai massages. But for the same reasons you get the Thai massage, which is that it "feels right" for me. A Thai massage makes me feel like I've been run over by a truck, but an oil massage (which I still prefer to be quite hard) can make me feel more loose the next day in my movements... or it can make me feel like I have the flu. So, I'm not sure if it's a frequency thing, a hormone thing, a release of toxins thing, or just chance on how I'll feel. I do them anyway. The sauna makes me exhausted the next day, but I also think it's really good for me.
I use meditation as part of my daily practice, but for me recovery is daily practice also, so I'll lump them together. Clearing out my mind absolutely makes huge differences in how my body feels. Or at least how I respond to how my body feels.
Dieselnoi advised me to soak my feet in warm salt water before sleep, so when I remember to do that I will. I don't feel huge differences, but I do think my sleep is a little bit more sound when I do that. I use blue light blocking glasses after sunset, to get my melatonin production regulated, also to help with sleep. Napping is amazing, if that's a possibility. Some days there's no time. Some days I just can't get to sleep in the middle of the day.
I heard this woman on a podcast and have just bought her book, you can check that out here: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a26146682/good-to-go-science-behind-recovery/