[When should you move to another gym/coach?]

Hi all. I have been contemplating moving from my local gym that I have been fighting with for the last year. Partly because of feeling stagnant where I am (see How Do I Improve as a Superheavyweight) and feeling a lack of progression. That, and I find myself constantly at odds with my coaches methods of training and lack of openness to other ways of thinking.

For example, I have learnt so much from the Muay Thai library. I largely attribute my progression to the content that Sylvie and Kevin make, and I am able to implement the things I learn at my gym. But because it is different than what my coach has learnt, and is teaching others, he seems to be pulling me up on things that he disagrees with. One example is that he tells me I overextend with my rear straight, and even dedicated an entire class to not over extending your rear punch. Nothing really wrong with it, there are many reasons why over extension is bad (poor balance, leaves you open, weight distribution is off), but there are some benefits to overextending (often head is off centre line, strike from longer distance, weight heavy on front foot so more torque or power) and some negatives to they way he wanted us to punch (head remains in centreline, shorter strike, stationary). When I tried to explain why I throw my straight the way I do, he said it is wrong and needs fixing.

I'll give another example, I have been implementing a lot from what I have learnt from the Yodkhunpon Sittraipum - The Art of Shadowboxing - specifically using maximum effort in my strikes and really visualising what is happening. But my coach tells me I need to slow down and I shouldn't be striking that intensely. I tried to explain the logic behind the way I'm shadowing, but he's not having it. I do as he says but pick it up again, this time he comes over with a stick and starts prodding me in the face to keep my hands up. I block the stick, and explain I was visualising the fight, and in my visual I was out of my opponents striking range, figuring out my next move to close the distance. He laughed and dismissed it, saying "yeah, and you were out of range when the last guy broke your nose" (I won btw haha he broke my nose in the last 30seconds of the last round). I said, "No, I was in his range and dropped my hands - my bad yes but big difference being out of range". He left it, but kept telling me to keep my hands up, even during bag work when it was out of range. 

The gym has also shifted to making fighting more accommodating for those that want to give it a go, removing fighters only classes and having all skill levels for all classes. This has been great for some, but is a large part of why I am having difficulty progressing. I really enjoy helping people get better, I love martial arts and take any chance I can to help ignite that same passion I have for Mauy Thai in others. But at the same time, I am at a loss in the exchange. I have tried talking to my coach and asked for advanced classes specific to fighters or people that want to train hard, but nothing as of yet. Its gotten to the point where I feel like its time to move on in order to grow, but everyone I talk to say you should stick to your roots.

So has any else felt this way? like its time to move to another gym, or find a different trainer? lots of people I know have stayed with the same trainer for most of the careers, so would be good to get others opinions on this.

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

 

On 5/12/2021 at 8:17 PM, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Some articles that might help on this topic, especially this one. Many people can't even tell how hard they are going:

Thank you for the resources Kevin definitely many reasons why people spar differently. I think lack of control and experience is a key factor with some of the people I have had issues with in sparring. Some people are receptive to the feedback, others not so much. I have actually been referring people to the Yodkhunpon Sittraipum - The Art of Shadowboxing video on Youtube to learn how to control their movements better. It has really helped me in how I spar and hit pads, feeling sharper and throwing ALOT harder than before - which was probably the biggest shock in progress.

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

On 5/12/2021 at 5:51 PM, Oliver said:

On 5/12/2021 at 5:51 PM, Oliver said:

Now some people simply don't believe in that and never will, ever. And they get extremely upset when it's ever brought up to them. So best not to. Just stick with the minority of guys who actually do want to work with you.

 

 

On 5/13/2021 at 1:32 AM, Oliver said:

Thing is, when you’re in the moment you can always tell which one you’re dealing with, you just feel it. You can feel if he’s happy, if he’s tired & stressed, if he’s focused & calm, or anxious & nervy, or distracted, or had 7 red bulls that day, or whatever it is. Yeah, there’s studies and research reports and smart people doing experiments with electrodes or whatever, and there’s a place for all that. But beyond study, beyond instrumentation, there is instinct. Certain things you just know before you think them.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences Oliver . I have actually changed my routine a lot since my last post because of that exact thing. The energy of others when training. Though the articles do show some insight into that side of sparring and training, I believe energy is important to keep in check and balance when you are starting out, or are feeling out your sparring partners. Like you say, its instinctual.

For example, I am always laughing. I have a very positive attitude towards training as I treat it like a game. I try to punch you in the face and vice versa, who ever punches the other person in the face more wins the round. This can be good and bad. With some more experienced fighters, its fun because they have the control to keep the pace and play the game. With less experienced fighters, I found them to have poor control and get frustrated and bitter, even if you slow down to cater to their level. I have found that there are outliers that no matter what happens, they are going to win in sparring - which I don't like - and these people have happened to be all smaller than me, so I couldn't go 80% without hurting them.

I actual chose to mention this to one of the guys I sparred with who threw really hard shots. I asked him why he was throwing hard and that its suppose to be light. His answer was because I'm bigger than him that I should be able to handle it. I stopped training with him after that. I'm now just sticking to sparing people that I trust and that I can learn together with. I've also reduced sparring outside of the people I trust to every fortnight, where I get the chance to try move sets on different bodies. its been great so far

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

On 4/26/2021 at 3:51 PM, Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu said:

There's a fighter out here in Pattaya named "Big Mike," occasionally just Mike. He's over 250 lbs, definitely a "heavyweight" not just in Thailand but anywhere. He can move, man. He usually fights on a more local circuit because at that size it's very hard to find opponents in Thailand, but he's had some big side-bet fights at Lumpinee as well. He's awesome. I'm including some short video of his sparring, just to give a flavor for how he goes about it with someone much smaller. Keeping in mind that this is likely for the benefit of the smaller guy, who definitely doesn't share Mike's skill or experience, but Mike is still getting something out of it himself and his fakes, feints, blocks, snuffing and closing of distance is, to me, quite beautiful and looks good for anyone sparring.

 

 

Thank you for this Sylvie!  Big Mike definitely uses his size to his advantage, despite the skill disparity. I think one thing that I have difficulty I have is that smaller people is that they tend to run, or go 100% maximum effort with their strikes. Not sure why but it tend to happen a lot ( have dropped 3x people from blocks and checks). I got to the point now that I have to pick my training partners throughout the classes. I have a few good training partners now, so am seeing some improvements. I am competing in a show in June, so will hopefully have some footage for people to critique

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

On 4/25/2021 at 9:14 PM, Oliver said:

Usually hate giving advice, but this issue tends to get ignored a lot. All the advice out there is for small fighters, and hardly any for bigger dudes. 

Basically the heavier you get, the more the mentality of your partners becomes a thing. So when you partner up with someone new for the first time, and they're good to work with and the two of you got a good energy going, talk afterwards and get their number. Meet up an hour before training starts, or outside of the gym on a Sunday, do some extra practice or whatever. Eventually get a few guys like that, even from different gyms. 

 

Thanks Oliver! So true. Have looked into a few videos - including those in the MTL - still not much content with emphasis for heavyweights. 

I have done something similar with a few guys around my gym, and from a few other good gyms. I have increased fitness and timing work with the lighter guys, and increased strength and skills with the heavier guys. I'm still the heaviest, but its still a challenge doing 5 min rounds of clinching with guys around 100kg. Just chipping away, but feeling like I'm improving this way, including implementing things from MTL

[Hey, guys I took some light sparring footage from my first week back after a covid layoff and think I look terrible. Would love some critique]

10 hours ago, NateNate said:

And I've already heard all the Ben Askren jokes so come up with something new lol

lol when the shoe fits bro haha. Keep it up man! a few notes to keep in mind:

• Movement is good, too much movement is bad. Your movement was good! you cut angles, and capitalised on your opponents high guard by changing levels. Your opponent was very stationary, turning into a punching bag almost. If you were sparring someone who moved more, or applied more pressure, your movement can turn into too much movement really quickly, wasting energy. Take your time, move when you need to.
• Use your reach. When you fought long, you were landing more. It also looked like you had the reach and height advantage as well, so if you have it, use it. You landed your push kick every time you threw it, switch it up with your lead teep. Once you land your teep, you can then mix it up with a fake teep to rear straight to keep your opponent guessing. You changed levels in the video, so you should pick it up easy.
• Combos. Get use to throwing 4 punch combinations or 4 punch with kick at the end combos. You threw in maybe 3 strikes max combos from what I saw. That may transition to you only throwing single shots in a competition fight. If you feel comfortable with 4 strike combos, you will natural get use to throwing more in actual competitions.
•  Knees. Throw more, I don't think you threw any. They help closing the distance, they can be hidden and set up behind punches, as well as set up your sweeps. Your sweeps were really good, so if you add knees to set them up it will give you more variety.

Getting better is a process man, and you filming sparring and sharing it on the internet is a good (can be bad) way of getting critiqued. Here is probably the best place for it, so keep it up and keep grinding away. 

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

16 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:

Well, this is just playing around with the ideas you present. You know you can't turn up the power for obvious reasons, but you can do a lot of things to handicap yourself against smaller fighters. Devote rounds to just teeping (teep the thighs, the waist, the chest), improving your eyes and timing. You can keep the power down and set challenges to yourself like: Only throw in 3s, or if 3s are easy, only throw in 5s (so you can learn to feel the holes in your combination choices). You can eliminate hands, and just work defense and kicks in flow. All these kinds of handicapping will increase your timing and vision which ultimately will give you advantages with opponents at your size.

Also, I don't know if you are a patron yet, but there is a new Muay Thai Library session which might really change your game, because you have limited training opportunities. It's an hour session on shadowboxing:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/49616909

20 minutes of vigorous, creative shadowboxing can really build your flow and your stamina. Sylvie's one of the best conditioned fighters on the planet, and it wiped her out. It's an approach to shadowboxing that I've never seen before.

And, while you are over in the Library there is a really good session by a fellow Big Boy, Kru San:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/16912720

It's really inspirational to see how light and smooth he moves, but also the whole session is about ring control, one of the more ignored aspects of Muay Thai basic training. If you can bring ring control to your bigger bodied moves your game can take leaps and bounds of improvement.

 

Hope some of that helps!

Thank you for replying Kevin!

I have been following both you and Sylvie for years, it seems so feels so unreal to have you respond to my posy much appreciated!

I currently handicap myself by going at 50% power and let my sparring partner go 80% to 100% if they are smaller. I do dedicate rounds to 1st round just hands, 2nd round just kicks, 3rd both, 4th round just defence and counters etc, but I haven't tried devoting rounds to single techniques before, so I will give this a go. 

I am actually a patron and have consumed so much from the Muay Thai library already, which I actually contribute to me winning my last fight. I utilised techniques from Sylvie, Dieselnoi and Yodwicha. I have seen the Yodkhunpon video as well, completely changed the way I shadow box, or even think about shadow boxing. I've been doing 20mins a day of it and can definitely feel a difference in my stamina as well as my technique - much tighter. 

I haven't seen the Kru San video, but will do now that I know he's big haha. Most of the content on YouTube is created by lighter fighters/trainers. Hardly any I have found has featured heavyweights - let alone super heavyweights. 

Thanks again Kevin! I hope both you and Sylvie all the best

[How do I improve as a superheavy weight?]

Hi there,

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to improve your skill set as a super heavyweight?

For context, I'm 6ft 3, 140kgs, and compete at superheavy weight. I change between a Muay Khao and a Dutch kickboxing style, as well as being a switch fighter. Most of the people I spar or train with are smaller than me, with the odd few who are the same - if not bigger - size than me. So I work at a 50% power rate as I could really hurt my training partners - which I do not like doing haha. I am able to keep up the pace, apply pressure and apply good timing but not really knowing if I'm getting better. Anyway, I have been denied access to some gyms because I compete, and been to others that turn sparing into full alpha fights - which I also don't like doing.

I would really like to stay at my current gym where there is no ego, so any advice would be great