AndyMaBobs
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Posts posted by AndyMaBobs
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Hey guys,
My impression is that Muay Boran as we see it today, is not a traditional martial art with heritage an lineage in the same way styles of Kung Fu are, my impression is that it is some sort of revival or reconstruction of Muay Boran and what you learn in a boran class today is actually relatively new.
Am I way off base? I've tried digging but have had some trouble finding answers
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Enjoy the ride
Honestly running out of energy was probably due to breathing, and that could partly be from habit and partly be from some nerves that might be building up.
Don't worry about it too much, well done on your first fight!
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2 hours ago, Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu said:
This "to catch a kick" idea is just a ridiculous thing. I think Kenshin promulgated it? I can't recall. First of all you do NOT want to catch kicks in Thailand, you want to check them. When you catch a kick you have lost a point. You have been scored upon. At general best you can get the point back, but you've given up a point. Yeah, there can be a sweep or whatnot, but the idea that Thais are somehow adopting really terrible punching techniques in order to catch kicks easier is flatly ridiculous. Honestly, it's just habitual poor technique that has somehow become widespread in Thailand that people are making up reasons for. Yes, Thailand has the best fighters in the world, but training protocols and knowledge of optimal technique is constantly shifting, and sometimes in certain lines of gyms it actually devolves.
I don't know if Kenshin propagated it, because I've been hearing it since before he was on the internet - but it may have been him.
I have been goofily trying to catch a non-existent kick from both a flared elbow and tighter elbow and I really don't think there is going to be a meaningful difference between them considering your arm is always going to be faster than your leg (unless something has gone horribly wrong).
I was training with Damien Alamos shortly before he announced he was coming out of retirement, and we spent a lot of time exchanging and catching kicks and his preferred stance to each is the rear arm close to the body and the left arm higher and slightly extended (sort as if you were holding a knife pointing out at about face level - there wasn't any delay in the speed I could catch a kick, even as someone who was adopting a stance I'm not familiar with.
51 minutes ago, LengLeng said:I really enjoy this discussion. Funny how these ideas circulate. On lethwei catching kicks would make sense since you can only win by KO. But muay thai, yes it's a ridiculous idea punches like these would make catching kicks easier. I almost laughed when my teacher told me this but seems like it's a thing people actually believe.
Yeah it's really weird. I also think that people commonly misunderstand the difference between being a boxer, and being a puncher. There aren't many Thai's that have the same fearsome punching you'd expect of a kickboxer, but I usually find that Thais are better BOXERS in that even though their punching form is normally lacking, they do have a better understanding of distance and range and how to set up those punches. Good kickboxers like Cro Cop, Peter Aerts etc understand that whereas a guy like Robin Van Roosmalen would just swing and win because he's powerful.
So I'll see guys in the gym who are doing bag only rounds trying to 'improve their boxing' but what they're actually doing is training their punching power, I usually tell them that they'll be better off in a boxing gym, or working with a coach who understands boxing as a separate sport.
Another I see a lot is the stiff leg muay thai kick, because so many people hear 'we don't bend the knee' and take it literally, rather than what it actually means being 'we don't chamber'.
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It's something I have to train out of people often. I see a lot of people doing it, and there is an idea amongst some coaches that the flared elbows are some how to make kicks easier to catch.
For me though, if it does/doesn't make it easier to catch a kick, I would still rather my fighter hit them while they're on one leg as opposed to catch. And you don't NEED those flared elbows to be able to catch a kick, but you do need a tighter stance in order to have quicker more powerful punches.
So if I have someone that flares their elbows a lot, I will try getting their arms in tighter (but not so tight that they'll be kicked in the arms all day). Ideally so they can not only go on offence, but use a cross guard and mummy guard easier too!
But that's also a part of my relationship with a fighter I train, I'd advise you NOT to do it personally, but at the end of the day you're not working with me, and for sake of argument your coach might have a plan or style that values things I don't.
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16 hours ago, Heino said:I'm finally going to start playing in clinch with one person at my gym (limiting it due to covid), but he is quite a bit bigger than me (and it seems like 70% of the fighters here are heavyweight). I've had every coach at my previous gym, and the coach here tell me that taller fighters are favored in clinch.I think of Sylvie's success in knee fighting and my experience in clinch with taller people before covid, and wonder if this sentiment is true. Being tall in muay thai definitely seems like an advantage, but I'm not sure if it's exaggerated during clinch. What are your thoughts on this?What advantages do taller fighters have in clinch? Are there advantages to being smaller in clinch? Do you have any advice for being the shorter/smaller partner in clinch?I understand the only way to improve is to just get hours in, so I'm very excited to finally have a partner I can responsibly train with.Thank you for your time.
If you're considerably taller, double underhooks become lethal, knees take way less effort to get to the face etc. that's a very big part of Dieselnoi's success, tho he was a great fighter by any metric, his freakish physical advantages made him exceptionally lethal. AFAIK only Vicharnoi was able to overcome him
If you're just slightly taller, I think while there are advantages they're not huge - but when you're WAY taller... ooh boy. Those huge physical advantages + a knowledge of how to use them, usually makes for an exceptionally dominant athlete. Dieselnoi, Semmy Schilt, Wladimir Klitschko, even outside of combat sports, Michael Phelps.
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Lavell Marshall is a great interesting guy and his video tutorials were real good too. I wondered what happened to him! I guess now I know. Cheers for sharing!
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3 hours ago, Jim said:
Hello:
I wonder if anyone has some good tips on how to make your kicks faster ?
I videoed myself kicking yesterday and all I saw was an old monkey trying to kick the bag. I looked like I was trying to do a slow motion kick.
Any help would be very helpful. Thank you.
First step is to always check in with your technique, because the arc of your kick affects the speed. Sylvie has a good video on what she calls 'the golden kick' that uses a smaller arc and is quite a bit faster than the baseball bat round kick you often see.
Then of course you have plyometric exercises like jump squats and things like that which can speed up your kick.
Something I like to get my fighters to do though is something I call a 'jelly leg' so when you kick, if you just imagine your kicking leg as being soft and loose like jelly, to get rid of any unwanted tension that will allow it to get to the target faster!
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19 hours ago, alexeric said:
How do the two differ? I do Thai but last night did kickboxing class since I was too late to make it to Thai.
Seemed more punch orientated and we did no clinch work but this may have just been the structure of that individual class.
Enjoyed it, and will go back, will it help improve my Thai also?If you're doing it at the same place, with the same coaches there probably won't be tons of difference in how you learn to punch and kick. Depending on where you go the rhythm is quite different. Kickboxing is fought with a lot more urgency because the fights are two rounds shorter + scoring favours aggression. It'll help your Muay Thai for sure.
As for how they're different? It really depends on what sort of kickboxing you're learning. If you're learning what typically gets called 'K1 rules' nowadays, you're learning the same tools from Muay Thai, but without elbows and clinch work is much more limited (K1 used to allow for more clinching but Buakaw and Overeem were too dominant with it). Teeps are a rarity, Giorgio Petrosyan is the most dominant combat sport athlete of all time, and a large part of his success comes from shoves and teeps + that guy has beaten quite literally every top name except for Masato and a draw against Buakaw.
You should learn some clinch work, because in kickboxing you need to know how to punch and clutch, because the pace is so fast. I'd say it was probably just that particular class. If your focus is Muay Thai, I'd suggest to train kickboxing every so often but I wouldn't focus on it. If you'd rather kickboxing competition you can really stay and train in either, just so long as you're okay with losing weapons if you're training Muay Thai and competing in kickboxing, but you certainly won't be lost so long as you're sparring regularly with people who have a kickboxing style.
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1 minute ago, JoopSnoop said:
Thanks again. Never heard the visa thing but maybe that is why Okada couldn't go. But that might just be an excuse too. Also it was mean to be in October 1963 then it was changed to December then changed again to January 1964. At least Oyama could still fight in December but when it was changed again to another month after he couldn’t go and that is when Kurosaki was asked to fight instead.
I am more a fan now. I did train until 2002 in kickboxing and had so many friend in Kyokushin because here in Netherlands the connection between kyokushin and kickboxing is old and strong. Where do you coach Muay Thai?
I coach in Britain in a gym out of East London, was taught by a golden age Thai fighter. I can DM you more details if you want!
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17 minutes ago, JoopSnoop said:1 hour ago, AndyMaBobs said:
Hope this is helpful to you JoopSnoop!
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Thank you, yes, Helpful.
Sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing right. Maybe I am using a bad browser
I mostly agree but still have good reason to say Kurosaki was not meant to fight. I was In Japan in 2006 and was able to visit Fujihira San, one of the three fighters. He has a small restaurant so we went for dinner. To cut the story shorter he said that Kurosaki was not meant to fight and was not ready to fight but had to because his sensei, Oyama, almost ordered him to. There were four fighters at first so they would have one fighter extra in case of injury. Two of them Okada and Oyama (not that Oyama) couldn't make it because of the date changes. Oyama was doing his legal studies at college and had examinations and Okada could no longer get time off his job. Fujihira said they were training together for more than a month and the date changed. Kurosaki was training them and making the plans and making the training ideas to help them get ready for the Thais because none of them had ever fought with gloves or in a ring at all. So he was about the same fitness as any trainer but they were all super fit not him.
If you say that he was as fit as a karate guy training hard is then okay, he was ready enough but definately not ready for a fight against the thai. He did get in the ring so he wasn't unfit. But Fujihira laughed when he was talking about how Kurosaki reacted after the fight. He was angry he lost and hated they took him off in a tanker but he said next time he had better train with them! He was not ready at all to fight in the ring. Anyway, that is my story of meeting Fujihira at his small ramen restaurant.
Also there are a few photos in Japanese magazines of him training with them. When they did the karate stuff in karate suits he trained with them, but when they did the kickboxing and glove training he was watching and teaching them. So he didn't do any of the hard training.
So from what I've heard, the event getting rescheduled from 1963 to 1964 caused visa problems for one of the fighters, which is why Kurosaki stepped in. I got that info from a different source, the two contradict each other so I don't know which is true! Happy to be wrong on that point though if he in fact wasn't meant to fight! It could be a semantic issue, in that someone can say 'he wasn't meant to fight' when he was the only one to lose, and that would imply that it's because he wasn't meant to fight at all, when he had been booked to fight since around December of 63 (based on my source)
I also could be over-complimenting Kurosaki in saying he's a bit of a founding father, because that does imply he helped found it, but what I more mean is that he is important to Kyokushin becoming wide spread - but yes you're quite correct not a founder.
I should say that I'm a Muay Thai coach, not a kyokushin guy, I'm just quite close to the art of kyokushin due to having a lot of friends/acquaintances involved in the art! So I'm not fully on the 'inside' as it were
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19 hours ago, JoopSnoop said:
You've accidentally put your entire response into a quote.
I did a fact check on this though a few months ago, and contacted Takasan the kickboxing/muay thai historian in Japan, he wrote a couple books on these early days of kickboxing but they haven't been translated into English. It was a pain in the ass because on top of a language barrier he is also quite eccentric, but worth it as he cleared up a few areas for me as he had other sources to draw upon. Yes, it is false that only one of the fighters was Thai. Tan Charan was ethnically Chinese, but Thai, and Huafai was Thai. Black Belt Magazine also got the year in question wrong, it was 1964, though it was originally planned for 63, that's probably where the mistake comes from, and like I mentioned before, Black Belt Magazine was a joke of a publication that would put up actual frauds, so they weren't going to have an editor fact checking, they would take it at face value.
There is one correction I will make though JoopSnoop, Kurosaki stepping in at the last minute, was a misconception based on what the historian told me. He said this wasn't actually true (I made this mistake myself on this very thread), he'd been reported as training for it in advance, it seems he always intended to fight. Perhaps he was a replacement, at last minute, but he was keeping in shape just in case at the very least. That and the rules were modified to allow for more use of throws, this was requested by the Japanese fighters so they could use more of their weapons + is a very Japanese move.
No he wasn't co-creator of kyokushin at all, but he was very good at marketing it and working with Mas Oyama to spread it around, so I don't think its unfair to call him a founding father so to speak. He eventually splintered off because he didn't really like the knockdown rules.Here are some photos Takasan sent me from the event, at the moment all sources of these pictures online come from him.I'm trying to keep a dialogue with him the best I can to find out what else we can uncover about these early days. Hopefully he won't be upset with me sharing:
Hope this is helpful to you JoopSnoop!
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I'd say it depends on how long you've been with them! My coach I've been with for a very long time - but he used to force feed me mixed nuts and raisins because he didn't like how skinny i was (he's Thai) so as a joke before I've brought him packets of mixed nuts!
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Over training isn't a myth, it's a thing. I think you will probably be alright to keep going, it'll be good for your mental well being to push through, but don't be stupid if you start running into serious PAIN beyond general muscle soreness. If you have the option, take an epsom salt bath or generally a warm bath and massage your muscles out.
You've got to know the difference between soreness and actual pain - and that's a fine line to walk. I'm sure you're gonna be fine tho!
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It's appropriation in the literal sense, rather than in the buzzword sense.
Cannot say I know about lethwei being trademarked... but I have a funny feeling I know which particular crowd would have done it.
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1 hour ago, LengLeng said:
Thank you very much for your advice and it's also comforting having my emotions validated. With the language barrier and me still navigating the culture, I've opted for an acceptance approach. Like I don't understand it, but I'll accept it. It's tough this shit but would it be easy everybody would be doing it. I think you're right about talking to the trainer, hopefully I can create a bond with him so I understand this better.
Don't be too forgiving when it comes to cultural differences though. I think when you get down to it, we're all more similar than we are different and it could just be that he's an asshole - but I wouldn't want to say because I wasn't there. Hope things sort themselves out!
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This is a situation that I think anyone who tries to really comment on is being disingenuous because they weren't there. My gut reaction is 'that's not acceptable from a teacher' but I wasn't there, I didn't see the situation and I'm sure your own memory of it will probably be slightly different from what happened.
The only real advice I can give is to think whether or not you agree with the other coach who said 'he gets like this' and decide whether or not you feel comfortable working with that particular coach. I'm sure even though you're emotional about it right now, that you won't care in a few months. I don't know the culture of Myanmar or Lethwei very well, but I'd suggest talking to the coach and finding it out if you and him are cool - if that is something that's acceptable to do within that culture.
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6 hours ago, LengLeng said:
Glad I could help!
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Looks like an indian club! I think the idea is similar to light kettlebells, gives you a bit of resistance without too much"
On other wrist strengthening techniques, quality of sensible S&C differs wildly in muay thai gyms especially in Thailand, but I have seen something similar to that in Chinese martial arts like Shua Jiao:
Because it's a wrestling style, they build up their arms with stone locks which are similar I suppose to kettlebells
For less 'martial artsy' ways of training your wrists, the best and probably most direct approach is to use things like grippers and dumbbells.
Hammer curls (at any weight) will target your forearms and wrist
You also have wrist curls which I'd only recommend doing with a light weight
Gennady Golovkin, who's possibly the hardest puncher in any sport p4p likes this:
He's got very strong hands (there are videos of him being able to hurt people's hand but squeezing) - and that strength in his wrist bulks up his already strong kinetic chain. As far as I'm aware he's never had a broken hand/wrist compared to some other fighters who always seem to have some sort of hand injury.
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I have an impression, though it is only an impression that western should be read as 'american' for most of these threads, because things like belts in Muay Thai isn't something I've encountered at all in Britain or Europe - that's not to say that it doesn't exist in some mcdojo-ish setting but a fair degree of what I've been reading in this thread overall seems to be a question of muay thai's authenticity in America, rather than the west.
I have my gripes with how muay thai is trained in the UK with silly padwork approaches that can't be replicated in a fight over proper drilling/sparring - but I've never encountered things like belts and gradings like what you've just described. I imagine that Sken probably used some sort of thing when he first started teaching 'Thaikwondo' over here - but shit like that seems to have been weaseled out if it was ever a thing
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9 hours ago, Jim said:
I was going to ask Sylvie about exercises to strengthen legs and balance in the morning but this is what I needed. Thank you.
Glad I could help! Knee's can be really tricky, but those exercises will also really help with your kicking balance too
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I love Spiky Sylvie. Thank you for sharing
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I answered a similar question on Sherdog recently. Kettlebell swings are very good, but in my opinion the best exercise to immediately start activating the right muscles (while building balance) is what Da Rulk calls a 'hopscotch' or jumping lunge.
Depending on how strong your balance or muscles are, at the end you'll eventually want to start jumping with this movement.
I would also recommend isometric holds, these will improve the height of your knees in addition to your kicks - train the obliques to pull that knee up higher and train the hips to be able to manage those heights.
Make sure you do these frequently - but they're not the full story. They'll help with your mobility, balance and strength, but really delivering knees with power, you just want to keep kneeing again and again on repeat, either dozens of times or hundreds of times depending on your experience level!
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Sagat is 'inspired' or rather, ripped off from the character Reiba, from the 70s manga 'Karate Master'. Right down to the eyepatch (although to their credit, they put it on the other eye
That + taking a recognisable, easy to pronounce name, and a busted moveset = many many broken nintendo controllers.
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Hi Eric!
I haven't had a hip replacement, however I did suffer from perthes disease as a kid. The condition is an erosion of the hip bone which meant that my hip was coming out of it's socket, and that my hip did not have a full ball joint. I had 2 surgeries. The condition left me in and out of a wheelchair up until I was 14. I started Muay Thai when I was 18, and not once did the kid version of me ever do the exercises that my physiotherapist instructed me to do. I was simply not responsible enough. So for me Muay Thai was my first foray (outside of swimming) into physical sports/competition.
Because my situation isn't identical to yours, I can't give the level of advice that you would probably want to hear, however my experience is that it did not stop me from training - however due to my left leg (the non diseased one) being stronger, I found that I developed a stronger right kick than left, as the left leg was my standing leg.
I to this day cannot perform a bodyweight squat with correct form, only now am I taking functional training seriously enough to see any real results in the squat (I am using Da Rulk's system and finding it helps me). I'd recommend them to help rehabilitate yourself (so long as you don't push yourself too hard and injure yourself).
I'd also recommend kung fu style stances, I use Kung Fu.life as my main resource, the shaolin stances do a great job at building strength and balance and it's very easy for you to find your own pace and intensity with them.
I know our situations aren't identical, but I hope my experience and ways of working around my bum hip will help you with your shiny new one.
I wish you the best of luck with your surgery!
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Stepping on kicks: 45-degrees, or straight ahead (per Kontoranee Payakaroon session)?
in Muay Thai Technique, Training and Fighting Questions
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Neither's wrong
it's all your preference and what you need to achieve at that given time.